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CITY OF CLEARWATER COMMISSION HEARINGS RE:  THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY

DAVID RAY

Would you like to bring in the next witness or do you want

MR. FLYNN: David Ray, please.

As a point of information, with regard to the issues that relate to the confidentiality of auditing, at the appropriate time extensive documentation will be put into evidence concerning the use of auditing information by the organization.

MR. CALDERBANK: Mr. Flynn, will any of your witnesses after — who will come up here, after Rosie be high level auditors or trained as auditors to the degree that Rosie and her sister, Lori, have?

MR. FLYNN: There may — I'd have to look through my witness list. There may be one or two more auditors. We've got different people for different purposes. We haven't heard from any real GO people yet, except for Mr. Walters who has knowledge. We haven't heard from administrative people yet.

There may be one or two more who did some auditing, but for the most part we want to get into some of the more Guardian's Office type activities as the hearings progress.

MR. LeCHER: Mr. David Ray.

Will you please be sworn in, sir?

DAVID RAY, a witness herein, having first been duly sworn by a Clerk for the City of Clearwater, was examined and testified as follows:

MR. LeCHER: Now, Mr. Ray, I have a few standard questions I must ask, as I ask every witness, sir.

MR. RAY: Okay.

MR. LeCHER: Number one: Are you appearing here today and testifying under oath voluntarily?

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. LeCHER: Have you been paid by anyone for your testimony, other than, expenses for coming to Clearwater?

MR. RAY: No, I have not.

MR. LeCHER: Do you have a lawsuit against the Church of Scientology?

MR. RAY: No, I don't.

MR. LeCHER: Does the Church of Scientology have a lawsuit against you?

MR. RAY: Not yet.

MR. LeCHER: Okay.

Has anyone suggested to you that you should state anything but the truth or has anyone suggested that you change your testimony for any reason?

MR. RAY: No, they have not.

MR. LeCHER: Thank you.

Mr. Ray, would you like to make a statement or go through your background or do you want to be led through it?

MR. RAY: I'd like to make a statement.

MR. LeCHER: Certainly. Go ahead.

MR. RAY: Okay.

This began back in about October or November of 1980. I was living in San Diego at the time with my mother and my two sisters.

My mother got into Scientology and —

MR. LeCHER: Will you speak up in order that people in the back of the room can hear you?

MR. RAY: Sure.

MR. LeCHER: How old are you, by the way?

MR. RAY: Eighteen.

MR. LeCHER: Eighteen.

MR. RAY: Back in about November of 1980, my mother started telling us — me and my two sisters — about Scientology, that she had been in it for a while and she was going to start applying the technology in her company. And I didn't think anything of it. And I just said, "Okay. Well,  let's see what you got?"

Well, right away it started creating serious conflicts between my mother and my stepfather at the time, her husband. And they started having a lot of fights about it because they had their own company called San Diego Computer Dynamics, which is in San Diego. And so, I was a little bit skeptical about it.

Well, three or four months later, they divorced. And my mother said, "Well, I'd like you to do the purification rundown," which is to clean out your body. And the purification rundown, what you do is you take a lot of vitamins, run one or two miles, then, sit in a sauna and sweat for about five and-a-half hours every day. And it's very rigorous, and very rough.

Well, I went ahead and did it to try and clean out my body and started going down to the organization, the Scientology Organization in San Diego, and checking into courses and so on and so forth. And I took two courses down there, the Communication course and the Essentials of Dianetics Zero down there.

And one of the recruiters in the organization came up to me and said, "Would you like to join staff? You get all your courses and all your training for free." And I was really turned on by what he had to say because it appeared to me to be all logic. The books he had written appeared to me to be all logic and what goes on in your head. And I said, "Okay, terrific."

So, I had plans to join staff March 1st. Well, I did, and started working there. It was — it was pretty easy work, nothing real big to do. I was studying a couple hours a day and I was enjoying myself.

Well, about March 8th, they came to me and said —

MR. LeCHER: What year was this?

MR. RAY: 1981.

About March —

MR. LeCHER: A year ago — a year ago, then.

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. LeCHER: A little over a year ago.

MR. RAY: Okay.

March 8th, 1981, I believe that's the date, my supervisor who was — his name was David Horrigan. He was in charge of Division Six, Public Division in that —

MR. LeCHER: Horgan?

MR. RAY: Horrigan.

MR. LeCHER: H-o-r-g-a-n?

MR. RAY: H-o-r-r-i-g-a-n.

MR. LeCHER: H-o-r-r-i-g-a-n.

MR. RAY: Okay.

He said, "We'd like to post you, put you on a job to fill up our basic course room with public people." And I said, "Okay. What do you want me to do?" He said, "Well, get on the phone and call people. Call your friends, tell them how great Scientology is, and get them in here so we get some money in here." And he says, "If you can do that in four months, we'll, give you any course, any position in this organization you want."

Well, I started and it took me about three days to do it. And that really blew their minds. And at that time there were some Sea Org. recruiters from here, from Clearwater, in the organization looking for people to take to the Sea Org. here in Clearwater. And they saw me and they got a hold of that, and they said, "Ah, we want this guy."

So, they came and they talked to me and — so, they laid out a contract. Now, I'm going to explain to you this contract. It gets very, very personal with your life. They want to know everything about you from when you were born till present day; and they talk to you.

The contract goes like this: They want to know if you've ever taken any drugs, specifically, LSD, okay? They're very concerned about that. If you've taken LSD, they don't want you, okay? They even go as far as to ask you: "Have you had any sexual relationships? How many? With whom? What schools have you gone to through your life? What were your teachers' names? What were your grades? Where have you lived? What were your addresses? How many times were your parents married? If they were divorced, what were their names, what were their addresses? Stepchildren you live with? Friends you had." All those names; they want everything.

And by the way, the contract says, "I join the Sea Org." — when you put your name on it, you join it for a billion years or so it says, which was a little beyond my comprehension.

So, after I had agreed to go into the Sea Organization, I did have some debts. You can't go if you have any debts. All right, you have to do something to pay off your debts. So, I sold my car at the time; I had a jeep and that paid off my debts.

And it took about — from the time I started talking to them till the time I was actually in Clearwater was about thirty-two hours, okay? It was really incredible.

And I arrived here in Clearwater just thinking, "This is going to be great," and I had the feeling I was doing something to the benefit of every person on this planet, okay? And that's what they led me to believe. I want to make this point.

So, I got here. I was — I was allowed to sleep a little bit because I had been traveling all day. They woke me up and they said, "Okay. You have to do a routing form and you have to go meet these people and sign this and sign that. And then, you have twenty-four hours off to go look around the city and do whatever you want." And I said, "Terrific."

So, they woke me up. I got — saw two people on my routing form. All of a sudden, they pulled me in and said, "David, we need you to work." I said, "No problem."

So, I went into the auditorium that they have there and they were setting up an event for March 13th, which is Ron Hubbard's birthday. And I worked and I worked, lifting these platforms. They weigh about three hundred pounds each, okay? And there was me and one girl lifting these. And it was very strenuous.

And this went on for about six or seven hours and I was getting very tired because I hadn't had much sleep. And I says, "Well, can I go finish my routing form, and can I go get some sleep or something? I'm tired; I'm not going to be able to last much longer." Right away, "No, you can't. You have to work because we have to have this done."

MR. LeCHER: Who said, "No," the girl?

Forget the question.

MR. RAY: No. The supervisor at the time, Gary Wasberg is his name, okay? He's the New Staff Control Officer, NSCO abbreviation.

And so, I went ahead and worked, and right away that sent my mind going around and around in circles, thinking "Wait a minute," you know. "Are these guys really for real?" Okay? I had a contract when I came over there. I had been promised things like twenty-five dollars a week to start, okay? I would work about eight hours a day like a normal job, all your training and all your processing, which is auditing, basically, for free.

Well, after that evening — I worked about a total of nine, ten hours that day, the first day — and I went to sleep. The next morning I got up and did the routing form. And by the time I got to the Treasury Department, I found out that until I did what they call Project 0 and Project 1, which entails about twelve courses, long courses, that I was only going to make $9.60 a week. I said, "Wait a minute. This isn't right. This is not what I was told; this is not what I agreed to," okay? And they said, "Well," you know, "we don't know what your recruiter told you, but this is the way it is." So, I had to accept it.

And about day two — when I first came there, they put me in a room by myself, which was really nice and I appreciated that. Day two they said, "Okay, we're going to take you to where you're going to bunk. Now, this is an exec — this is a room for executive people in the Church of Scientology, okay? You're new here, don't talk to them." And I said, "What?" And they said, "Don't talk to them." I said, "Okay."

So, I walked into the room, and when that door opened that was it. The air was so thick and the stench was so bad it just about knocked me over. So, I walked in the room and I was just thinking, "You got to be" —

MR. LeCHER: Thick with what and what kind of stench?

MR. RAY: Body odor.

And I walked in and the room was about twelve feet by sixteen feet, not including the bathroom; there was a small bathroom there which was a mess. But there were four bunks on each side. Eight people in that room had all their clothes, all their belongings in that room. There were boxes with papers, dirty clothes piled up from the ceiling to the floor — floor to ceiling, excuse me, and all over the place and there wasn't much room to move around.

And there were cockroaches — like, I'm from the west coast, and I'd never seen palmetto bugs, and to me that's just a giant cockroach.

MR. LeCHER: They are to us, too, but we call them palmetto bugs; it sounds better.

MR. RAY: So, to get the basics over: When I was first there, I got extremely skeptical about the whole thing, all right? I didn't know what to believe and what not to believe because I had been lied to on five different occasions so far. I didn't know what else was a lie.

So, when they said, "We'd like to put you into an auditing chair and start auditing you," I said, "No way." They said, "Why not?" I said, "Because I keep getting different stories from different people. I've been lied to, and I'm not going to sit there and let you guys do something to me and I don't know what it's all about." I said, "I'll read anything you want me to read, but I won't sit in that chair."

So, they sent me to Ethics. So, I went into Ethics and they said — they have a thing called overts and withholds, all right? And what that is is if you do something —

MRS. GARVEY: Overts and what?

MR. LeCHER: Overts and what?

MR. RAY: Overts and withholds.

MR. LeCHER: Oh, overts —

MRS. GARVEY: Okay.

MR. LeCHER:  — and withholds.

MR. RAY: Right.

MRS. GARVEY: Okay.

MR. RAY: Okay?

And overts is when you do something that you know to be against your own ethical code or moral coder okay, and you hold it within your head, okay, and you just keep it there. That's an overt. And withhold is holding it there.

So, they took me in there and said, "Okay. Start writing up all your overts and withholds. We want to know all about it." Okay. So, I started —

MR. LeCHER: That — wait. That may be a belief, and I'm advised it's getting dangerous. So, let's —

MRS. GARVEY: Well, he's just explaining a series of events.

MR. LeCHER: Is it all right, Mr. Flynn? I don't know where it's going to end up.

MR. FLYNN: Go ahead. I think we can go forward. Tell them why — what they told you —

MR. RAY: The reason I was writing up these overts and withholds, they told me, was because I refused their processing. They're not used to that. They —

MR. LeCHER: That may be to the benefit — that may be considered religious. It may be like "What is a sin?" And we don't really want to know what it says.

MR. RAY: Excuse me.

MR. LeCHER: Yes.

MR. RAY: They never indicated to me that it was religious. They never indicated to me that that was a religious belief, okay? From day one, when I got into Scientology, I was instructed that this was — their auditing and their tech — was scientifically proven to work, all right? From day one I was told that, and I was told that all along, okay?

So, I wrote up these overts and withholds and I handed it to the guy that was handling this Ethics Cycle, okay? And he looked at it and he's going, "Okay. Well, you've got to do this and this and this." And what he was telling me was I've got to do work, physical labor. They call it "mest work." M-e-s-t stands for matter, energy, space, and time, okay? So, I had to do physical labor.

So, they said, "We're going to put you in the housekeeping section." So, they put me in the housekeeping section, gave me a cart, you know, and loaded it all up. I had to go clean public rooms.

Well, when I first started, they gave me a whole floor to do by myself, which is about, oh, I'd say, thirty-one, thirty-two rooms, all right? I — "How do you expect me to finish these?" Okay. And they said, "Well, you're one of the top beings on this planet. That's why you're here, and you've got to do it." I said, "You've got to be kidding."

MR. LeCHER: Ladies and gentlemen, please. It may be humorous, but we don't want to laugh and make a circus of these hearings. This is important and we want to keep some decorum.

Yes, Mr. Ray.

MR. RAY: Okay, well, I gave it my best shot. I finished it; it took me about, oh, twelve, thirteen hours. And it was very hard on me physically, because the weather here in Florida gets incredibly hot. There's no air conditioning in the building. In the public rooms, they had small air conditioners, okay, but none in the hallways and so forth. There is no air conditioning.

It's a regular hotel room, the public rooms.

MR. LeCHER: So, public rooms are hotel rooms?

MR. RAY: Yeah, they're regular hotel rooms.

MRS. GARVEY: For people who come to —

MR. LeCHER: That's a public —

MRS. GARVEY: As opposed to a staff member?

MR. RAY:Yeah, as opposed to a —

MR. LeCHER: They clean in the restaurants and —

MR. RAY: Right. Staff members work and run the hotel, okay, and deliver the processing and training. The public are the ones that they have come in and get the money from.

MR. LeCHER: Can the public go in those rooms? We, the public.

MRS. GARVEY: Can we, the general public, walk through —

MR. LeCHER: Can we, the public, walk into those public rooms?

MR. RAY:They claim you can, okay? They claim that any public person, anybody off the street, can walk in, look around like a regular hotel. But I have found that not to be true.

I was friends with the security guard down at the front door; his name was Alex — I don't remember his last name. And somebody came by off the streets, was just looking around, and read "A Religious Retreat for the Church of Scientology." He wanted to go and look around. Well, they quickly — him, and they called another security guard, grabbed him on each arm and escorted him out very quickly. And that's the story about looking around. But — okay.

MR. LeCHER: Continue, then, with your travelogue.

MR. RAY: Okay.

So, then — instead of going into real big detail on this anymore — after working and doing all these rooms that I was required to do — and I did get them done and I did work hard — they promoted me, okay? And I was in charge of the housekeeping services for all of the hotel.

And what they didn't tell me was — they said, "Well, yeah, you re going to be able to tell these people, what to do." I thought I was going to sit down and do paperwork, okay? Well, no. My rooms — my room quota each day went from thirty-two to seventy-eight, okay?

MR. LeCHER: That's a promotion.

MR. RAY: That's a promotion.

So, they have — on the contract, they say, "If your statistics are up" — let me — let me explain that. Every time you clean a room, you leave a little piece of paper in there that says my name, you know, "I'm your housekeeper," and there's numbers by these words. One says, "Incredible," you know, "Okay, Good, Bad, Terrible," and they've got to circle a number by the word that they feel how the room was cleaned, okay? Well, you pick these up each day and drop them off. And that's how they calculate your statistics; you add up the numbers, divided by the numbers that you have, and there's your number, okay? It's on average.

Well, if your statistics are up, every two weeks you're supposed to have twenty-four hours off, called liberty. It's more like the Navy than anything else. Well, since they were shorthanded, I would keep asking them for my time off because I was working, oh, anywhere from eighteen to twenty hours a day. I wasn't getting much sleep; I was very tired all the time. And they wouldn't give it to me. They said, "No. We can't — we can't afford to let you go. These rooms won't get clean."

Well, I wanted the rooms to get clean and I wanted to be able — the public, you know, to have what they're paying for. So, I went ahead and did it. Well, that went on for about nine weeks, okay?

And one day I said, "Uh-huh, I'm leaving." And I took off. I took my day off. I just went down to the beach and slept on the beach, walked around, got a suntan. And when I came back, oh-oh. They were angry with me. They said, "David, you're going to have to go to Ethics and write up your overts and withholds again." So, I did that.

The thing that — the thing that really kills me about this whole — this whole operation is they — by the questions they ask and the things they do, they open you up to your innermost personal self, okay? And as I'm sure all of you have done at one time or another, opened yourself up, you're extremely vulnerable, all right? They'll pick you up and they'll raise you so high you feel like you're on top of the world and, then, they'll drop you and they'll let you feel like a bottomless pit, all, right? And those are the kinds of terror and searing emotions that go through a person's mind when they're there, okay?

They want to leave; they want to help themselves. You get physically tired. Sometimes, you don't even have time to take a shower. Ninety percent of the people that walk around there just — they stink; they're not clean, okay? The people there are not clean. The building is not clean. The building is an extreme fire hazard, okay? They have boxes stacked up all over the place. Out in the garage they have old furniture just dumped out there, mattresses piled up, or they had this when I was there, all right? And if that would have been ignited, there would have been a lot of people killed, a lot of people. They have a very old fire alarm system.

They told us there as staff members, if you saw a fire somewhere, run down to reception, let them know. They've got to run around behind — there's a reception room. They had to go around behind it, flip the switch for the alarm system, get on the phone and call the fire department, all right?

Well, two things: Number one, they only had one elevator in operation at that time; they had three elevators there. It's certainly slow and certainly crowded, okay, because you're talking about — at the Fort Harrison itself — about four hundred staff members and three hundred public, okay? That's seven hundred people. And — with one elevator in operation.

So, if you saw a fire, it was quicker to run down the stairs. Well, that still takes time. Hypothetical situation: If a fire would have broken out on the seventh floor — there's ten floors — my guess is that that seventh floor and the floor above it, the eighth floor, would have been an inferno by the time that alarm would have been set off, okay, for the amount of steps.

Also, they packed people that were coming in — they sent — they have people come in here to Clearwater from organizations and missions all over the world to do what's called the Flag Executive Briefing Course, FEBC for short. And it was supposed to help them to go back to their own organizations and get more people into the organization, therefore, bring in more money. This was all based on money, okay? "How much income we could get."

Every week, when we had a staff meeting, "How much money did we get?" That was the first thing; everything was secondary to that, all right?

Well, as these students came in, a guy that I bunked with was in charge of putting these people in their rooms. His name was Mike Gravell; he's the Commanding Officer of Area Estates Org. And he was putting in a room, twelve by sixteen, twenty-five people to one room and all of their belongings.

MR. LeCHER: Twenty-five — twelve by sixteen?

MR. RAY: Yes. Twenty-five people —

MR. LeCHER:In this city?

MR. RAY: In this city.

MR. LeCHER: In the Fort Harrison?

MR. RAY: In the Fort Harrison.

MR. LeCHER: What floor?

MR. RAY: Third, fourth, and fifth.

MR. LeCHER: Third, fourth, and fifth. Have you got that, Mr. Shoemaker?

MR. RAY: This began in the beginning of May and was really starting to get going when I left, okay? And my guess is that it's going on now just as strong as ever.

MR. LeCHER:Third, fourth, and fifth?

MR. RAY: Third, fourth, and fifth floors.

MR. LeCHER: How many restrooms to twenty-five people?

MR. RAY: One.

MR. LeCHER: One.

So, there's just no way you can all possibly take a shower, then. So, no wonder, your original statement is probably correct.

MR. RAY:

You had to take — I walked into the rooms occasionally to take pillows out of the rooms because we didn't have enough for the public people, so I would have to take them away from the staff.

Well, I looked on back of the door and they had what's called a shower schedule. They started at six-thirty. The first person went from six-thirty to six-thirty-five; second person from six-thirty-five to six-forty, okay, ongoing — five-minute showers up to max limit — maximum.

MR. LeCHER: If someone took ten, it would ruin the whole train.

MR. RAY: If someone took ten, they'd —

MRS. GARVEY: He'd get killed.

MR. RAY: Yeah, about five and-a-half, somebody else would go in there and just yank him out.

MR. LeCHER: Okay. Continue.

MR. RAY: Well, what was going on through my mind the whole time I was there, okay, is "If we're really supposed to be helping clear this planet, okay, and we're supposed to be benefitting everyone on this planet, why are, we only dealing with the people that have money and lots of it," okay? And I would ask these questions and I would get no answers, or no straight answers anyway.

But I would notice from dealing with the public — and I dealt with every public person who came in and out of that building, all right — that people that were there trying to get their training and processing to help themselves and didn't have a whole lot of money would get treated very badly. And they would. And the people that came in there and had a whole lot of money and they were there just spending money and showing off, you know, whatever they — they like to show off; they like to flash their money. Those are the people that would get special attention, okay?

And I was always getting instructions down from the Accommodations Counselor to take care of these people that had these big, fancy rooms and had lots of money, you know, do anything they wanted to do, okay? And we'd be moving refrigerators in and out of there with no dollies, me and one other guy. We'd carry them up and down the stairs. What does a refrigerator weigh, about three hundred pounds? Okay.

MR. HATCHETT: Yes.

MR. RAY: And beds the same way, okay, up and down stairs, no dollies. This — on and on like this. And I put in, like I said, eighteen, twenty hours a day.

And I'd complain about it and they'd give me a bad time.

Another thing that really bothered me. When I was in that room, I was what they considered a peon, since I was brand new to the Sea Org., okay? All those executives I lived with felt like they were high and mighty, and they just loved to pick on me, okay, because I asked them questions. And they would pick on me.

Well —

MR. LeCHER: What questions would you ask them?

MR. RAY: Oh, I asked them questions about the money: how much money was coming in and out each week; what kind of jobs they did, what their jobs entailed. I wanted to know all I could. How come — "How come you guys aren't out there picking up the people on the streets that don't have any money, okay, and showing them how to make some money so they can do something with themselves," okay? Stuff like that.

MR. LeCHER: How did they pick on you?

MR. RAY: Well, I'd be sitting in the chair, watching television, which was my favorite thing to do if — any time off I had; I didn't sleep very much. And they'd walk in there and pick me up out of the chair and put me in another one and say, "I want this chair because it's right in front of the TV set, and you can't say nothing about it." And I'd say., "Oh, yeah?" Well, me, you know, I'm — I've got a fuse about that long, okay? And I'd say something back and they'd strike at me, okay?

And I got into four physical fights on four different occasions, one of which I was trying to leave and take some time off, and he just hauled off and punched me because he didn't know any better way to stop me.

MR. LeCHER: He — you wanted to leave? You wanted liberty, again?

MR. RAY: Yes, I wanted to leave and —

MR. LeCHER: And he wanted to keep you in the Fort Harrison Hotel?

MR. RAY: Yeah.

I wanted to leave and go down to the beach and get some sleep. I could not sleep in that room. There were bugs crawling all over the place; it smelled real bad.

One night — I was told by the guys in the room it was a wolf spider — but one night I was laying there and I kept feeling these little bites on my body. I didn't know what it was, these little sharp pain things. And so, I got up pretty early and decided to take a shower, walked in, looked down, and the whole side of my body was covered with blood. And so, I washed it off and looked, and there were a whole bunch of little bumps on my body. So, I walked back over to my bed real quick, flipped back the covers, and there was this huge, brown spider. And I smashed it, to say the least.

So, I went to the Medical Officer, and I started running a fever. And I — and there was no way I could work. I needed to lay down and get some sleep. So, I went in there, and he said, "What kind of overts and withholds do you have about spiders?" Sick. And I said, "Well, I just need to relax. Can I see a doctor?" And he said, "No, you can't see a doctor." And he says, "Anyway, can you afford it? How much money do you have?" I said, "Well, I have about five dollars." He says, "Well, we don't pay for your doctor's expenses. That's something you're going to have to save for if you want to see a doctor." Okay. "What we can do" —

MR. LeCHER: And you were making 8.60 a week at this time?

MR. RAY: Nine-sixty.

MR. LeCHER: Nine-sixty.

MR. RAY: And it — later on, it increased to twelve dollars, but not during the time that I got sick. Just about two months before I left, it went up to twelve dollars and that's as high as it got.

So, the Medical Officer, he would not — and his name is Gary Pippenburg.

MR. LeCHER: Gary Pippenburg?

MR. RAY: Yes.

He — at that time. He — I think, P-i-p-p-e-n-b-u-r-g, Pippenburg.

And he wouldn't do anything for me. And he said — he says, "Well, why don't you go talk to your supervisor. See if you can get some time off to lay down."

I went to talk to my supervisor and the second I — that I mentioned that I was sick, okay, he got extremely violent in his tone of voice to me and started yelling at me and screaming at me, saying, you know, "Don't get sick. We need you to work. You can't have any time off, period. There's no way we're going to let you have any time off." And I just said, "Wait a minute."

I was just too tired to argue. So, I would go up with my cart, like I was cleaning rooms, and I would open up one of the rooms that was empty and I'd lay down and go to sleep. I was just so tired; There was — I could barely carry myself up the stairs, just barely make it. And I'd go in there and go to sleep. And I did that several times. And eventually — this was right before I left — I wound up in the RPF, Rehabilitation Project Force. And was I in for a surprise.

What it is is a group of people that have done something, what they consider, against the Church of Scientology, okay? The Rehabilitation Project Force is the last thing they do to try to save your being before they kick you out, okay? And I was scared to death to be kicked out, because me, along with everybody else who's there, has a basic need inside to do something good for somebody else, okay? And we were led to believe that we were doing something good for a whole lot of people, and — we didn't want to lose that. I didn't want to lose that. So, I said, "Okay. I'll go into the RPF."

So, I went in there. And basically, what it is is emptying all the garbage out of the restaurants, okay? Restaurant garbage is wet; it's old food; it's got flies and all kinds of bugs crawling around in it. And we would pick up the cans, take them down to the garbage dump, dump them into the garbage dump. And then, at the end of the day, we'd have to go in there in our shoes and stomp it down.

And I don't know what kind of diseases we were exposed to, but we were getting some really weird ones, okay?

MR. LeCHER: Get inside the dumpster and stomp it?

MR. RAY: Yeah. It just literally — I mean —

MR. LeCHER: It was too small or was that punishment?

MR. RAY: No. The dumpster was too small.

And you'd get inside there and this restaurant garbage would be just like quicksand. You'd go all the way to the bottom. You'd be, you know, more than waist deep in this stuff, all right, and it smelled awful. And then, you'd have to go back and clean up, okay?

And the food that they served the RPFers was just rotten. They served all the leftovers after all of the staff on the whole base, all the buildings, ate, okay? Then, we ate alone, whatever was left over. And it wasn't very good. And it didn't give us the nourishment that we needed to keep our bodies going.

MR. LeCHER: What would your typical diet consist of after — the leftovers?

MR. RAY: Good grief. It would be pieces — sometimes, pieces of meat, pieces of beef or chicken or pork, usually a salad and a drink. But the salad was wilted and it smelled rotten, like, it had been — you know, somebody had dumped sour milk on it. The cheese was no good. It was all molded, but molded to the point it was fuzzy, you know, like a peach.

And one time they had french fries there, and I picked up a handful of french fries and started eating them and I found a french fried palmetto bug in my french fries. And I wondered how many I had eaten, you know, when I saw that one. So, I threw that out.

So, my diet, my personal diet — I'd run across the street and get myself a handful of cookies, and that's basically what I lived on, cookies, because that's the only decent thing that they had to eat, in my opinion.

MR. LeCHER: Where did you get the cookies?

MR. RAY: There's a little health food store across the street from the Fort Harrison, right across the street.

MR. LeCHER: Well, for 9.60 a week, I guess that's all you could eat.

MR. RAY: Nine-sixty a week, I had to skimp a — well, I smoke, okay, and I was smoking when I was there. Nine-sixty a week will buy a carton of cigarettes and maybe a tube of toothpaste, and that's it, not counting soap, shampoo, any toiletries that you needed. If your shoes wore out, you're going to have to get yourself a new pair of shoes. If your pants wore out, you'd have to get yourself a new pair of pants. And this just doesn't cover it.

MR. LeCHER: Did you have family money that could support you in this cause that you were involved in?

MR. RAY: Yes, ray mother and my two sisters who are still members of the Church of Scientology.

And I would like to — I have a couple of things say about that. The biggest conflict I had coming over here from the west coast to give my testimony is that my to mother and my two sisters are still involved in the Church of Scientology. My mother is doing Advanced Enlightenment courses. My sister is in the Sea Organization in Hollywood/Los Angeles, okay? And my youngest sister, Jennifer, who's fourteen, is living, you know, at one of their hotels there called The Manor, and she has not even gone to school this year, okay, because they keep putting into her mind that schools are no good. "You want Ron Hubbard's technology. That's all you want, that's all you need. We'll graduate you," okay?

But what really bothers me is that that, aside from my mother, is my whole family, okay? And this is going to be publicized within the Church of Scientology, and I'm going to lose that after today, all right? And that just tears me apart. That's my family, okay?

This is — this is the Church of Scientology's advanced attack, whatever, is that they — they attack you on a personal level, okay? And that's the greatest attack anybody could ever do is when they attack you on a personal level. They could come up and punch you in the mouth. Sure, it's going to sting for a while. And if any of you have ever broken up with your girlfriend, you know that hurts for a while. That hurts a lot longer than a punch in the mouth, okay? And that's the way they attack you.

All right.

MR. LeCHER: You've said so much, I —

MR. RAY: I'd like the opportunity to say something about the Guardian's Office.

MR. LeCHER: I'd like to know about the Guardian's Office.

MR. RAY: Okay.

Every two weeks on Sunday a representative from the Guardian's Office Worldwide, which is here in Clearwater — I'm not sure where; I believe it's in Clearwater Building, up around LRH personal office.

MR. LeCHER: In Clearwater — the old bank, Clearwater Building.

MR. RAY: Yeah. It's on the corner of Fort Harrison and Cleveland.

All right.

We had one briefing that I specifically remember, and a specific case that we were told about.

Do you. remember this big thing about Jonestown, the Guyana cult?

MR. LeCHER: Yes.

MR. RAY: Okay.

Well, they stated to us that they had done research into what happened there and that it was the U.S. government that poisoned them with nerve gas, put cyanide in the punch to make it look like that, just to scare away Scientology. Okay. We were informed that, led to believe that, and that was just pounded into our heads. So, our feelings about the U.S. government were not too good.

MR. HATCHETT: How old were you when you were in Clearwater?

MR. RAY: I was seventeen years old at the time I was there.

MR. LeCHER: You were seventeen at the time?

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. LeCHER: Have you ever graduated from high school?

MR. RAY: Yes, on the CHSPE, California High School Proficiency Examination.

MR. LeCHER: Well, you seem like a very bright young man and a very ambitious young man and a very gutsy guy to do what you've done and get out and to take the chance to lose your family, and I believe that to be true.

Do you have any fears that your mother and sisters may be given special duties to —

MR. RAY: Well —

MR. LeCHER: — because of this?

MR. RAY: — it's possible. I don't really want to say because I don't know, okay?

The church of Scientology doesn't scare me to the point where I'm afraid of physical harm, okay? But they do scare me in the fact that L. Ron Hubbard got so many people, in the millions, okay, into this Scientology organization. Each and every Sea Org. member is being trained with LRH technology to understand and to think like him, okay?

L. Ron Hubbard got all these millions of people into this cult. As these people grow and develop in the technology, can you imagine what two thousand L. Ron Hubbards are going to do?

MR. LeCHER: Do you think, then, that they promoting and conceiving junior L. Ron Hubbards, future L. Ron Hubbards? Is that what you're saying?

MR. RAY: Each and every Sea Org. member is a future L. Ron Hubbard, each and every one.

MR. LeCHER: I'd like to know about the children. I have here nursery with ten — with five and ten children playing on the floor and somebody — were there minors that were staying in Clearwater against their parents' wishes?

MR. RAY: Yes, one specific that I know of.

MR. LeCHER: Tell me, specifically, what you know.

MR. RAY: Her name was Nadine Meader, M-e-a-d-e-r. She was thirteen years old at the time I was there. And one night she came to talk to me because we were friends, we worked in the same organization. She was crying because her parents had sent her a little nasty letter about how they don't like the Church of Scientology, and the second half of it was very long on how they want her back.

Well, she had shown that to a lady by the name of Laurie Englehart, who was the Commanding Officer of Public Estates Organization, okay? And she had given her a lecture about how great Scientology is and how much better off Scientology was than her parents. She was just in tears; she didn't know what to do. It was tearing her in half.

MR. LeCHER:

How did she get there in the first place at thirteen?

MR. RAY: I never found that out.

My guess is this: They do send out missions, okay, with Sea Org. missionaires on recruiting missions. And they go out; they go all over the world, okay, and they find people and they talk to people. They'll talk to anybody. They'll talk to somebody off the streets, okay, and try to recruit them into the Church of Scientology.

MR. LeCHER: It's just amazing to me how a child can get involved. How would she be there against their wishes? I mean, she's thirteen, without her parents' consent, they want her back, they want her home, yet, she's forced to stay there.

Is she still there today to your knowledge or has she left?

MR. RAY: To my knowledge, she's still there. The reason that she's there — the reason you feel the pressure is because they tap on that piece that's inside of every one of us —

MR. LeCHER: Everybody has a button?

MR. RAY: — to do good, okay? There's a part of us in every one of us that wants to do some good for other people, all, right? And they pull on that, and they tug it, and they twist it around and turn it upside down till you don't know which way is up, all right? And that's why you feel like, if you leave, you're going to be condemned forever, okay. That's the way they make you feel.

You feel like, if you leave, you're going to be condemned forever. So, you don't want to leave no matter how bad it gets.

MR. LeCHER: Tell me about the Cadet Org.

MR. RAY: All I know about the Cadet Org. is that there are — they are minors that are in that org. They're — what they consider minors is anybody under sixteen. If you're over sixteen, you've got to work like a regular staff member.

But they would do physical labor, hard physical labor. They'd rotate from building to building and do odd jobs. And they'd play video games all night. They'd come back — they'd get off work about four-thirty, and there they'd be until two o'clock in the morning playing video games. No schooling.

MR. LeCHER: Well, video games, are they being — do you put a quarter in them or are they —

MR. RAY: You put a quarter in them.

MR. LeCHER: So, the children — the children have to get — we worry about their license because we have to license those machines in the City of Clearwater. And apparently, we didn't even know they had video games.

Are there video games in the Fort Harrison Hotel?

MR. RAY: Yeah. They're in the Lemon Tree Restaurant.

MR. LeCHER: At 8.60 a week —

MR. RAY: Nine-sixty.

MR. LeCHER: — 9.60, you really can't play many games a quarter —

MR. RAY: No.

MR. LeCHER: — all that long.

MR. CALDERBANK: Unless you're good.

MR. LeCHER: Unless you're good, as Mr. Calderbank says.

Twenty percent of the staff are, under twenty years old; is that — or about twenty years old?

MR. RAY: Yes. There are about — there are some staff members, Fred Hodgekinson is one and Ernie — I don't remember his last name — but they work in the Engineering Department, and they do physical labor, and they're about seventy years old, all right? And they give these guys auditing and processing, you know, to help — they've got arthritis, okay?

One of them's got some serious back problems. Well, they tell them that through this auditing, they'll cure that so they can go ahead and work. And they push them just as hard as they push anybody else. And I've seen them collapse twice.

MR. LeCHER: The older people?

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. LeCHER: If someone wanted to go there from California or from Clearwater for that matter and had money, a known money person, what would it cost them to stay at the Fort Harrison Hotel with meals?

MR. RAY: With —

MR. LeCHER: Or without meals, however they charge.

MR. RAY: Okay.

With meals, with their room, and with their training or their processing, because that's why they're there, it would come out to an average of a hundred dollars a day or more —

MR. LeCHER: That's —

MR. RAY: That's very conservative. Per person, okay. And there is an average of three hundred people there at any one given time, public paying.

MR. LeCHER: How many?

MR. RAY: Three hundred.

MR. LeCHER: Three hundred.

What about poor people that are motivated but just don't have the money?

MR. RAY: They leave them alone.

MR. LeCHER: What about blacks, minorities? Do they cater to minority people?

MR. RAY: Yes, they do. It's — there's not much racial prejudice —

MR. LeCHER: They do not discriminate?

MR. RAY: No.

MR. LeCHER: But they do accept you if you're black?

MR. RAY: Well, I have only seen two black people there, and no other race is there except for white people, so I think, maybe, they're a little bit smarter than we are.

MR. CALDERBANK: In other words, you're saying they're street wise to the scam?

MR. RAY: What's that?

MR. CALDERBANK: They're street wise?

MR. HATCHETT: Street wise we call it. Street wise, w-i-s-e.

MR. RAY: Okay. Explain it, please.

MR. HATCHETT: Street wise means, you just don't go for the con games so fast, you can see through it.

MR. RAY: Right.

MR. LeCHER: Okay.

Ladies and gentlemen, let's get back to this now.

Were efforts made to keep city inspectors from observing these things that exist, like overcrowding, filth, staff quarters? Were efforts made to keep inspectors from seeing staff accommodations and the antiquated fire alarm systems?

MR. RAY: Yes, they were.

MR. LeCHER: How do they do something —

MR. RAY: Just a moment. Let me say one more thing about the GO while it's fresh in my mind.

They would go around to the newsstands and buy up the newspapers and burn them if there were any articles against Scientology in them so that we would not see them, okay?

Now, I got my hands on one while I was there. It was an article called "Suetology." I don't know who it was written by, but the head of this Suetology, his name was L. Ron Blubbard, okay? It was really cute. And I showed that around, and I got in a lot of trouble for it, a lot of trouble. And that almost put me in the RPF right there for doing that.

As far as the inspector comes — somehow, the Public Estates Org., through someone, got some information that there was going to be a surprise inspection on the Fort Harrison Hotel, and there was an all out effort made to get it cleaned up. Every staff member in their spare time, even while they were working, would get out there and move the stuff around, clean it up, and hide it. They couldn't get rid of it, so they had to hide it.

So, they'd put it in rooms and storerooms, lock it up, and make the keys disappear so — like, they didn't have the keys to them or something. I'm not really sure on the details.

MR. LeCHER: Do you think someone in one of our offices could be tipping off?

MR. RAY: It's a definite possibility. I wouldn't put it past them.

MR. LeCHER: I know that we do try and go up the street so we don't appear like we're harassing them. So, it could have been that we started at one end of the block and they observed us. Of course, day-to-day inspections is something the Manager may want to know more about than me.

Commissioners, we've been — all right.

How many regular staff do you have?

MR. RAY: In all the buildings combined, which includes the Fort Harrison, the Clearwater Bank Building, the Quality Inn, the Heart of Clearwater Motel, and Mimeo, which is just down the Street from the Clearwater Bank Building, there's about eight hundred to a thousand.

MR. CALDERBANK: Staffers?

MR. RAY: Staffers.

MR. LeCHER: But staff, primarily, lives in the Fort Harrison?

MR. RAY: No.

MR. LeCHER: Is —

MR. RAY: It's divided up into thirds: the Fort Harrison, the Heart of Clearwater Motel, and the Quality Inn.

MR. LeCHER: Are — oh, a third, a third, a third?

MR. RAY: Right.

MR. LeCHER: So, if you wanted — does it cost more to go to the Sandcastle than the Fort Harrison? I mean, it's a newer building.

MR. RAY: I'm not really sure on price. I know that the public —

MR. LeCHER: Are they all as overcrowded: the Sandcastle, the —

MR. RAY: No. The Sandcastle is relatively empty, okay, because they don't like having to stay at the Sandcastle. They would — the public, the guests, would rather be at the Fort Harrison.

And there are some real serious conflicts that go on about that.

MR. LeCHER: Why?

MR. RAY: Well, people will call in advance and book reservations for a room, okay? Well, if somebody's got more money than they do and decided they want that room, the Accommodations Counselor will give them that room. And so, when people finally do get here, their reservations are no longer for the room that they asked for. And there are some serious conflicts that occur because of that.

And I would sit down and I would talk with these people, these public people, okay? And I would just sit down and listen to their problems. All I was was a couple of ears, all right? Because nobody else would do that, nobody, or not that I knew of, all right? And this way I had a lot of information about what's happening with the public, about how they were being treated. And there were a lot of complaints.

And anytime they complained about something in their room or something that had to do with their room, it was instantly put on my shoulders and I had to handle it, I had to deal with it.

MR. LeCHER: What kind of complaints did you have and how did you handle them?

MR. RAY: Well, we had complaints like: "I didn't get the room that I asked for?" "I asked for a refrigerator; I don't have one." Just basic stuff like that. They asked for something that they didn't get. Those type of complaints.

So, what I would have to do is try to find something, either what they specifically asked for or something to substitute it in the best way I could.

MR. LeCHER: Commissioners, we could go on with this young man for a long time, and we should take a break. I'd like to take the break and invite him back for questioning from the rest of the Commission.

So, Mr. Ray, we'd like you to stay around. We'd like to ask you questions in about an hour and-a-half at two p.m.

MR. RAY: Okay.

MR. LeCHER: Ladies and gentlemen, this meeting is adjourned. We'll see you in an hour and-a-half.

(Whereupon, the luncheon recess was taken.)

Afternoon Session

MR. LeCHER: Ladies and gentlemen, take your seats. Commissioners, staff, consultants, take your seats.

We are returning to the business at hand. And for those of you that are watching on television, welcome back to the second half of our third day of hearings. We will be going on, also, tomorrow morning and afternoon and, hopefully, we'll end somewhere around five o'clock tomorrow afternoon. Then, we'll give the scientologists their point of view to be expressed here, as we have also presented the city's point of view.

Mr. Flynn, is your witness still sworn in?

MR. FLYNN: Yes, Mayor.

MR. LeCHER: All right. We are now listening to a young may named Ray, David Ray.

DAVID RAY, Resumed.

MR. LeCHER: And Mr. Ray, you can continue to tell what you want to tell, and try and be brief. I don't want to stifle you, either. And then, I would like to then throw it open to my colleagues for any questioning. And I believe we'll start with Mr. Hatchett; is that correct? All right.

So, Mr. Ray, would you continue your story, please.

MR. RAY: Yes.

I have two things I'd like to go over right away. One is what they know in Scientology as the RPF's RPF. And that's the Rehabilitation Project Force Rehabilitation Project Force, okay?

If you do something wrong in the Church of Scientology, you go into the RPF. If you do something wrong in the RPF, you go to the RPF's RPF. And what they do is they completely isolate you, okay? They completely isolate you from anything. You cannot eat with anyone; you cannot speak to anyone. You sleep in the garage with all the rats, okay? And all you do is handle garbage all day long.

MR. LeCHER: When you say "garage," do you mean the parking garage?

MR. RAY: The parking garage, second floor.

MR. LeCHER: The second floor, all right.

Now, what about the wind and the rain and the elements? Do they have plywood up there or are you sleeping on the ramps?

MR. RAY: No. They have plywood walls. There's a bunch of furniture and stuff stored in there.

MR. LeCHER: That doesn't —

MRS. GARVEY: Were you in —

MR. LeCHER: I wonder if our building inspectors had inspected that? It must be a code violation, I would imagine. But that's another issue.

MR. RAY: All right.

Well, what they do in the RPF's RPF is just isolate you from everything so that you're completely helpless. It's like having him down on the ground and punching him in the face over and over and over again. He's helpless, okay?

They give you no positive whatsoever; it's negative. "You're bad, you're terrible, and we're going to try to help you. We're the only ones that can help you. If you try to get help from the outside world, you'll die." And that's what they tell you, okay?

And another thing that completely shocked me — this is at the end when I left and I started on the routing form to rout out. And I went over to the Treasury in the International Training Organization — this is where you get your training and you read all the materials and stuff — and they handed me a piece of paper that says I owe them six thousand dollars. Believe me. They call it a freeloader's debt, okay, like I was freeloading on them.

Here I am working this — busting my tail for them, working eighteen, twenty hours a day, all right, taking only 9.60, then, twelve dollars a week, all right? When I want to leave after all that, they tell me I still owe them six thousand dollars, okay? I don't even —

MR. LeCHER: What did you tell them?

MR. RAY: I said, "Forget it." It's — and I have no intention of paying it. That's where they leave themselves vulnerable. Since they are claiming to be a religion and since they are claiming to be non-profit, okay, I don't have to pay it.

MR. LeCHER: All right.

One quick question before I go to my colleagues: Did you knowingly and willingly sign this million — or billion-year contract?

MR. RAY: Yes, I did.

MR. LeCHER:  Is it billion or million?

MR. RAY: Billion, or so —

MR. LeCHER: A billion-year contract.

You knowingly signed that?

MR. RAY: Yes, I did.

MR. LeCHER: All right. Is there anything else you'd like to add?

MR. RAY: No. I'm ready for questions.

MR. LeCHER: I'd like to start with Mr. Hatchett, Vice Mayor.

MR. HATCHETT: David, thank you.

Fraudulent promises — but I want to get into something else in the area of fraud.

I think you mentioned something about three hundred people, maybe, a week checking in and out.

Give us a little more education on how those activities took place with the public people coming in.

MR. RAY: As far as money is concerned?

MR. HATCHETT: Correct.

MR. RAY: Okay.

Well, I had mentioned earlier there's about three hundred people on the average there at any given time, okay? They don't come in and out on a weekly basis.

Some of them stay there two or three months; some of them live there, all right? That's their home. But the average is — and this is being extremely conservative, all right — a hundred dollars a week. That includes your room, your meals, and your training or processing, whichever you're going to do. All right.

So, they collect money — one of the — one of the people that was in my room with me that shared my room —

MR. LeCHER: Excuse me.

Did you say a week or a day?

MR. RAY: A day; I'm sorry.

MR. LeCHER: You meant to say a day, but you did say a week?

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. LeCHER: All right.

MR. RAY: I'm sorry.

One of the guys that was in my room — his name was Mark Fisher — he worked for the International Management Organization, okay? And they managed all of the organizations and missions throughout the world, and it's here in Clearwater.

MRS. GARVEY: Is that what IMO is for?

MR. LeCHER: IMO?

MR. RAY: Yes.

MRS. GARVEY: International Management Organization.

MR. SHOEMAKER: That's an organization.

MR. LeCHER: That's — it relates to a paper that we showed as an exhibit earlier.

MR. RAY: Yes.

Well, he was in what they call an Evaler. And what he does, he takes a look at org. statistics and he evaluates them and tells them what they've got to do to improve, where they're going wrong, okay, and so on to make more money.

Well, they were published at the weekly meetings that they would have. They would tell everybody how much GI, gross income, was coming in from all over the world. On the average that I'd hear is six or seven hundred thousand dollars a week, okay? One week I heard two million dollars.

MR. LeCHER: Million?

MR. RAY: Million in one week coming in.

And that goes into what they call Sea Org. Reserves, which, as far as I know, can be a bank in Switzerland, okay? It's there — they claim Sea Org. Reserves is there so if the country ever goes into a depression that Scientology can survive.

MR. LeCHER: Okay.

Mr. Hatchett, do you have another question?

MR. HATCHETT: Yes.

About this Jonestown people incident: You say somebody in the Guardian's Office gave you a report against the federal government being that they were the people that gassed them?

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. RATCHETT: Do you know that person by name?

MR. RAY: No, I do not.

MR. HATCHETT: Was that person from Clearwater at that time?

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. HATCHETT: And was that said at a Clearwater building?

MR. RAY: Yes, it was, at Fort Harrison.

MR. HATCHETT: On or about what date?

MR. RAY: Early June.

MR. HATCHETT: 1981?

MR. RAY: 1981.

MR. HATCHETT: Thank you.

MR. LeCHER: Mr. Shoemaker, do you have any questions?

MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Ray, how long were you a Scientologist or were you actually a member of the organization?

MR. RAY: I was a member of the Church for seven months, and I was here in Clearwater for almost five.

MR. SHOEMAKER: What were the events leading up to your leaving the Church? Was there any attempt made to try to keep you from leaving?

MR. RAY: Yeah, there were attempts made to try to keep me from leaving.

What made me leave more than anything was the absolute —

MR. SHOEMAKER: Sorry.

MR. RAY: — the absolute insanity that's there. And they claim to be so sane, okay? And they teach you how to be sane, so they claim. But what they're really doing is they open you up to your personal self and they program you to be L. Ron Hubbard's clone.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Well, from the time — when did you decide to leave? How long did it take from the time you decided you were going to leave until the time you actually left: a day or —

MR. RAY: Oh, no, six hours from the time I made the ultimate decision. But I had been contemplating it quite a bit for a couple of days before that. And all together, I had been contemplating it after two days I arrived there.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Well, when you decided that you were going to leave, did you tell anybody that you were going to leave at that point?

MR. RAY: Yeah.

I went up to what they call the Hubbard Communication Office, which they have one in each organization, called Division 1. And I went up there and I said, "I'd like to leave and I'd like to rout out," okay?

And what they do is they sit you down and put you in Ethics and they said, "You've got to stay here and write up every overt and withhold you have on the Church of Scientology. We want to know about it, because this way you won't leave here with bad feelings." That's the con game they give you. They want you to tell everything that you've got against them, okay, or everything that you've done wrong ever in your life so that they have it in writing, and they tell you that it's to make you feel better. Sure, it makes you feel better until they pull it out.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Did you do it?

MR. RAY: Yeah, they make you put everything in writing. You have to write it all down and sign it.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Did you do that?

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. SHOEMAKER: You did?

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. SHOEMAKER: And what was the next step after that? How many — how much — what time period was involved in this when they were routing you out, let's say?

MR. RAY: This was — this was like — it took — it took at least one day; it kind of dragged on to the second day, because once I said, "Okay, I'm going to leave" — well, as soon as I said that, I just went back to contemplation because I didn't know if I wanted to go through with that because it's a lot of hassle. And they treated me like a criminal, okay?

I could not say anything. I could not do anything. I got dirty looks. I was — got chewed out. I got insults, okay? And they just sat me down at a desk and just fired on me verbally.

MR. SHOEMAKER: What were — what types of things were they saying to you?

MR. RAY: I don't care to repeat them here, please.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Well, did they attack you personally or — that you shouldn't be leaving the Church or that — those kinds of things, that the minute — something was going to happen to you —

MR. RAY: Right.

MR. SHOEMAKER: — if you left or —

MR. RAY: Right.

When you first join, you have a history record, okay, of everything you've ever done, all right, every place you've ever been. And they pull that out and look at it and go over it and start telling you how bad you are, how, when you go out in that world, you're going to die, okay, you're not going to make it; there's no way. "All those people out there are suppressive. We're the only sane ones around."

MR. SHOEMAKER: And they specifically told you that —

MR. RAY: Oh, yeah —

MR. SHOEMAKER: — that —

MR. RAY: — over and over again.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Did they — at the time they pulled this information out from this initial document you filled out, did you, before this time, have any realization or indication that that was going to be used in any way?

MR. RAY: No. I was told that that would be put in the file and never brought up.

MR. SHOEMAKER: You were?

MR. RAY: Yes, I was.

MR. SHOEMAKER: And they specifically took that form out and was reading right from that at the time —

MR. RAY: Yes, they did.

MR. SHOEMAKER: — they were talking to you?

Do you know the name of the person who you were talking to then?

MR. RAY: One's name is Doug Steele, and the other one is Dee-Ann Steiger. I don't remember the other's name.

MR. SHOEMAKER: So, after —

MR. RAY: There were three present.

MR. SHOEMAKER: So, after they were convinced and going over all these things that were going to happen to you, and they were convinced that you weren't going to change your mind, what happened to you?

MR. RAY: They sped up the process a little, and they took me over and I had this piece of paper that said I owed a lot of money.

MR. SHOEMAKER: That's when you got that —

MR. RAY: Oh, that's — that's when I got a little angry at them.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Have they been in contact with you since you left?

MR. RAY: No, they have not.

MR. SHOEMAKER: They have not.

You haven't received any information or —

MR. RAY: Well, something that I found out about two weeks ago is that they have been sending mail with my name on it, but they've, been sending it to my mother. They haven't been sending it to my home address. I just found this out a couple of weeks ago.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Oh, really?

MR. RAY: Yes.

So, I took the mail, sent it back to them rejecting it

MR. SHOEMAKER: I — I'm sure this is a difficult question and, certainly, you don't have to answer it if don't want — it's kind of personal but — since your mother knew that you left the Church, have you lost relationships with her to this point? I know you had indicated you felt you would after today, but have you been in communication with your mother since you left the Church?

MR. RAY: Barely.

It's — ever since I left the Church, she just doesn't have any desire to talk to me or see me or anything. I call her up on the phone once and a while; we just don't get along on the phone. It's —

MR. SHOEMAKER: During the time that you were in the Church, you would have been seventeen. Would that have put you as a junior or a senior in high school?

MR. RAY: A senior.

MR. SHOEMAKER: During that time, did you go to school at any time?

MR. RAY: No, I did not. Well, I took the California High School Proficiency Examination before I ever went into Scientology.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Oh, you did? I see.

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Okay.

Have you heard of policies, while you were in scientology — I'm sure you have since you got out, but while you were in Scientology — of Disassociate or the Fair Game Policy?

MR. RAY: Yes. I've heard of the Fair Game Policy.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Had you heard of it before you got out of the Church?

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. SHOEMAKER: And what did that mean to you? What was the Fair Game Policy?

MR. RAY: Well, that meant that anybody who committed what they considered a suppressive act toward the Church of Scientology that they were just fair game to anybody, you know, like a hunted deer or something.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Do you have any firsthand knowledge of that being practiced against any individuals?

MR. RAY: No, I do not.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Are —

MR. RAY: One thing — excuse me.

MR. SHOEMAKER: All right.

MR. RAY: One thing I'd like to say is that they pound it into your head over and over again that if you get any of the material for their Advanced Enlightenment courses, okay, and read it before you've been properly prepared for it that you will contract pneumonia at — at least pneumonia and die.

MR. LeCHER: Did you get pneumonia?

MR. RAY: What's that?

MR. LeCHER: Did you get pneumonia?

MR. RAY: Not yet.

MR. LeCHER:

That's a belief, all right. We can't get into belief.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Also, would you go in just a little bit — there was some reference made in the outline which we had about you having some experience in hotel management before you came over here.

Could you explain what that was just briefly?

MR. RAY: Well, it's — my grandparents own a hotel.

MR. SHOEMAKER: But you had actually worked in a hotel before. You knew how a hotel operated before you —

MR. RAY: Well, I had been — I had been staying with them for a while. And when they took vacations and so forth, I ran it. They — they taught me how to do it, and I picked up on things fairly quickly.

MR. SHOEMAKER: So, therefore, you would notice — you would tend to notice much more in terms of the conditions of rooms in the hotel, the fire exits, and things that an average person —

MR. RAY: Oh, yes. I think I'm well qualified to determine that.

MR. SHOEMAKER: There was a comment or there was some reference made to vacation packages that were provided for some of the guests, rather than — did everyone who came here come for counseling only or were there also vacations?

MR. RAY: Well, some people came here — I remember that some of the public would come in just for vacation purposes, okay? But once they're there, that's it. Those — they'll talk them into taking services and spending more money.

So, they always ended up getting trained or getting their processing, going up the bridge as they call it.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Going up the bridge?

MRS. GARVEY: Going up the —

MR. RAY: Right, going up the bridge.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Did you have any kind of firsthand knowledge in terms of the operation of the Guardian's Office, other than those that you had mentioned to us?

MR. RAY: No.

MR. SHOEMAKER: What was the purpose of the Guardian's Office? What were you told the purpose of the office was?

MR. RAY: To protect the Church of Scientology.

MR. SHOEMAKER: Mayor, I don't have any other questions.

Thank you.

MR. LeCHER: Mr. Calderbank, do you have any questions?

MR. CALDERBANK: Yeah.

David, were you — you say you were promised decent living conditions when you came to California?

MR. RAY: Yes, I was.

MR. CALDERBANK: From California.

In modest means, were you ever given those accommodations, what you would expect what they told you?

MR. RAY: The first day; that was it. The first day, I guess they wanted — they wanted me — once they had me in there, I guess they figured they could do anything they wanted to me. So, the first day, they lived up to their promises.

MR. CALDERBANK: And they — you said that they wouldn't give you medical care and you would have to pay for it.

Did they make any promises as to medical care in California to come to Clearwater?

MR. RAY: Yes. They told me I had full medical and dental.

MR. CALDERBANK: Medical and dental?

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. CALDERBANK: And when you tried to get that, you were turned down?

MR. RAY: Yes, flatly refused.

MR. CALDERBANK: You made $9.60 a week?

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. CALDERBANK: And you were sixteen years old when you first went in?

MR. RAY: Seventeen.

MR. CALDERBANK: Seventeen.

Did you have — did you sign a W-2 form? That's the tax form for your social security —

MR. RAY: I don't believe so, no.

MR. CALDERBANK: It' s —

MR. RAY: Yeah, I know what it looks like.

MR. CALDERBANK: Okay.

Did you know — were you working regular hours?

MR. RAY: At the Church of Scientology?

MR. CALDERBANK: Right.

MR. RAY: What do you consider regular hours? Yeah, I worked regular hours.

MR. CALDERBANK: You had musters and you had to be a certain place a certain time working for the Church?

MR. RAY: Yeah. I was required to be certain places, but I had so much to do and so little time to do it in; half the time I never made it.

MR. CALDERBANK: Did you ever have to set aside breaks?

MR. RAY: Yeah. I was supposed to have lunch break, breakfast break, dinner break.

MR. CALDERBANK: Did you ever get those?

MR. RAY: Once in a while I'd take them, but I'd have to take them. That's how much work I had.

MR. CALDERBANK: Did children under sixteen in the Cadet Org. follow just about the same basic routine of labor and working conditions?

MR. RAY: I don't believe so, no.

MR. CALDERBANK: Okay.

The city inspectors that went up there, you said they had moved furniture around and they were directed to areas that had been cleaned up, and they had advanced knowledge; is that correct?

MR. RAY: Okay. I didn't see the city inspectors come in. I do remember helping them haul things away and hide them, okay, because the city inspectors were coming. And there was a lot of stuff to do and not very many people to do it, and there you have it: extremely hard work.

MR. CALDERBANK: Just for the public health and safety: Would you consider, then, one inspection a year — or how often would a government agency have to inspect to be able to ensure that it was in a cleaned up condition all the time?

MR. RAY: Well —

MR. CALDERBANK: Because you were in a motel atmosphere prior.

MR. RAY: — to put it mildly, if I was an inspector and walked in there, I'd have condemned it.

MR. CALDERBANK: And you said that floors seven and eight were an inferno. You said if a fire had started, they would turn into an inferno. Why is that?

MR. RAY: Yeah, as an example, if it would have started on floor seven because of the amount of boxes and papers stacked in the rooms. And all the furniture is wooden, and it's very old and very dry, okay? And there is no sprinkler system, okay?

And the fire alarm system, as I said, you have to go all the way downstairs to reception, okay. And that's just to set off the alarm, not including the time it takes to run across to get there and to get up to those floors.

MR. CALDERBANK: Did you ever see children in poor health conditions?

MR. RAY: No, I did not.

MR. CALDERBANK: Did they ever physically restrain you to prevent you from going outside when you wanted to?

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. CALDERBANK: That was when they punched you?

MR. RAY: Yeah. I'm not blameless for that. I turned around and punched him back and got out. But it really shocked me. And then, I said, "Look, I'm leaving. I've had it." And I'd walk out and, turn around and, all of a sudden, wham. I got it right in the face.

MR. CALDERBANK: All the time that — do you know who punched you in the face, who blocked you from leaving physically?

MR. RAY: Richard Nordstrum.

MR. CALDERBANK: Richard Nordstrum.

You made it clear to him that you wanted to leave?

MR. RAY: Yes. I made it very clear to him that I wanted a day off.

MR. CALDERBANK: And he physically, stopped you?

MR. RAY: He physically tried. He chased me. I ran. After I hit him, I ran. And I dove out the window on the fourth floor onto the third floor roof, and jumped off that into the parking lot and I ran down the parking ramps and down the street.

MR. CALDERBANK: If you hadn't done that, do you feel that you would have stayed there?

MR. RAY: No, I — it's —

MR. CALDERBANK: You were talking about the food, that you had to eat the leftovers.

Was sickness or food poisoning common there, to your knowledge? Did many staffers get sick with the food quality?

MR. RAY: Well, almost all the staffers looked like they had health problems, okay? None specifically that I know of because they're told not to talk about it, okay? I was told not to talk about it.

I would get sick in my stomach once a day.

MR. CALDERBANK: And this was a result of eating the food?

MR. RAY: That and the amount of work, lack of sleep, lack of cleanliness.

MR. CALDERBANK: My last question is science and technology. You mentioned that frequently. You only mentioned services, scientifically proven facts, and guarantees, legal documents, waivers, signatures.

Is that all you heard? Is that what you thought of — how was it represented to you?

MR. RAY: In Scientology, the only thing that was represented to me that had anything to do with religion was their marrying people, okay? And that's it.

And how it was — how they can marry people is beyond me. They — the people in that Church get married for one reason and one reason only, for love and affection, because they can't get it, all right? They pound you and make you work so hard, and they chew you up and spit you out again so many times, your desire for somebody to love you and have a little affection for somebody is so great that people just get married. Because that's the way you have to do it in the Church of scientology. There are a lot of marriages.

My sister got married in the Sea Org. She's seventeen years old and she's pregnant.

MR. CALDERBANK: Would you sum — in summation, if you knew now — if you knew then what you know now, would you have joined Scientology? Would you have spent money and given them work and, you know, the months of your life to come to Clearwater?

MR. RAY: No.

MR. CALDERBANK: Do you think you were misrepresented as to what you'd find here?

MR. RAY: Yes, very much so.

MR. CALDERBANK: No further questions.

MR. LeCHER: Mr. Berfield.

MR. BERFIELD: Mr. Ray, I think you covered most of the issues that are living accommodations, medical care, physical abuse, and city inspector.

And the problem that I have had before is the truth of those witnesses that come in. But you said that you never really — if I understand your testimony — that you never really accepted Scientology from almost the second day; is that correct?

MR. RAY: That's correct.

MR. BERFIELD: That being the case and you stayed on for a relatively short time, what are you doing here today? What do you have to benefit from coming here?

MR. RAY: A lot, okay?

That feeling that's inside of me to do some good for a lot of people — I know what happened in my family because of Scientology. And I'm sure there are millions of families with similar or worse problems because of this organization, all right? And it breaks my heart. It really breaks my heart to know that people out there have to go through what I'm having to go through with my family.

MR. BERFIELD: What — along that line, I take it that you do not personally fear for your own future, but what about your family that remains in Scientology?

MR. RAY: I am almost completely lost on what to do. I believe this is the right thing. This is a good start; that's why I'm here.

MR. BERFIELD: But do you think there'll be retaliation against them?

MR. RAY: Well, very possibly. That would be just a guess, though; I don't know how accurate it would be. But I would say, yes.

MR. BERFIELD: Mr. Calderbank hit on the point about some of the things going on in the city.

And the question I would ask: If you could leave one parting statement with the people in the City of Clearwater, what would that be?

MR. RAY: Well, first of all, I would tell the City of Clearwater that I am extremely proud of them in that there are almost no local people involved in that group. They have had the common sense and just to know that it's a bad place and a bad scene and not to get involved in it, all right, and they work together on it. And I just think it's fantastic, and if anybody can do anything, you guys can.

And one thing that I would watch out for is that, since this testimony has been brought up, it's going to be interesting to see what kind of attraction that gives to the people. Because I know myself, being a teenager, and when I was in high school and so forth, we all loved to go down to haunted houses and stuff, okay, and see what they're all about. Well, that may happen here. They might want to go find out and see if all this bad stuff is for real. And they could get trapped. And I would be aware of that.

MR. BERFIELD: I have no further questions.

MR. LeCHER: Mrs. Garvey, do you have any questions.

MRS. GARVEY: Mr. Ray, I have a number of questions. But first of all, I want to sympathize with you for the chance you're taking and your family loss, that you already suspect what's going to happen. And I appreciate the fact you're willing to do that, even though — if you know you're going to break. I guess I pray that you'll get support from everybody else, from so many other people so that you'll have something to replace that support I think it's going to be important for you.

To go back over some of the things you talked about: For instance, when you talked about the inspection by the city, how far in advance did they know that the city was going to be there to inspect, because you're talking about moving heavy objects and hiding things? That takes more than two hours.

MR. RAY: About four days.

MRS. GARVEY: Four days? Okay.

You talked about Mr. Nordstrum and how you ran from him after the physical fight and jumped out to the third floor and ran. You returned?

MR. RAY: Yes, I did.

MRS. GARVEY: Why did you return?

MR. RAY: Well, again, it's that part of me that says, "Okay, David, you want to do some good for some people. So, this appears to be a good way to do it, so you're going to have to do it their way."

MRS. GARVEY: So, you must have gotten an awful lot of plus to get you to be so firmly committed in such a short time, in spite of the behavior towards you, the way they treated you. You still had this sense of commitment: they are going to accomplish something that you can help with?

MR. RAY: Right.

What attracted me originally was that I was a very isolated person, okay, when I lived in San Diego. I didn't have a whole lot of friends, all right? I wasn't real happy with myself and the things that I was doing, all right?

Well, my mother was in Scientology and one day took me down to meet what they call an FSM, a field staff member, in San Diego. His name is Ray Barton; he's Class 8 auditor, okay? The highest you can go is to Class 12, and he's a Class 8. And I met him, and she had told him a little bit about my background. Well, all he did was make me feel like I was on top of the world and give me all the friendship that I had ever wanted, okay?

MRS. GARVEY: Big brother —

MR. RAY: Right.

MRS. GARVEY: — someone that could really relate to you?

MR. RAY: Right.

And he was just — he would put me up for everything that I did. He would find the good points in it, all right, and put me up. And that's what attracted me to it. I said, "Well, anything like this has got to be good." And I was wrong.

MRS. GARVEY: When you first heard about this and heard about auditing — I realize that you never took auditing sessions?

MR. RAY: No, I did not.

MRS. GARVEY: Okay.

But when you heard about auditing, were you ever told that what you said would be confidential?

MR. RAY: Oh, yes, that's — yeah, many, many times.

MRS. GARVEY: Were you told that it was a scientific technique, that auditing is scientifically based and not religious — or it's scientifically based or not?

MR. RAY: I was told that all of the written technology, okay, that includes what's in the books, okay, and what they do with you in an auditing session, was researched, scientifically researched, and scientifically proven to work.

MRS. GARVEY: You talked about your job in — I keep forgetting these initials — the RPF, which was the garbage collections in the restaurants —

MR. RAY: Yes.

MRS. GARVEY: — right, and your subsequent stomping down like they do the grapes.

Can you — can you describe the conditions in the restaurant? Were the conditions — or were the restaurant conditions — kitchen, rather, clean, that they would pass any kind of health standards, as far as you're concerned? Or were you not allowed that far in?

MR. RAY: I saw just about everything, because, also, in the RPF, one of the things we had to do was get in there and scrub the toilets.

Now, I don't — I don't appreciate scrubbing a toilet without having rubber gloves or something, okay? And no, they were not clean, okay? They — we did that, like, once a day when it needs to be done a lot, a lot more often than that.

Like I said, if I was any kind of inspector that went in there, I'd condemn the building and I'd close it down.

MRS. GARVEY: Specifically, in the restaurant kitchens, would you — were you able to — were you allowed in there, and could you say whether or not they were, basically, sanitary, clean? They're cooking food there for the public; is that —

MR. RAY: No, they're not sanitary.

One of the guys I bunked with — his name was Larry Black — he was the chief cook. And he was always coming and complaining how they didn't clean up everything for him in the morning, so he's not going to clean it up for them in the evening. And so, they'll get served breakfast with dirty dishes.

MRS. GARVEY: Okay.

You did make comment that you really weren't aware of any children — negative conditions.

Are you aware of a location of a school? Where would children go to school in this area?

MR. RAY: Okay.

The Scientology — I don't know about this area. But the Scientology organization has a — like, a chain of schools; they're called Apple Schools.

MRS. GARVEY: Apple?

MR. RAY: Apple.

MRS. GARVEY: Apple Schools.

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. LeCHER: Is that from the Beatles?

MRS. GARVEY: Would there be any school facility within the Clearwater area that you know of?

MR. RAY: Not that I know of, not in the Clearwater area, no.

MRS. GARVEY: So, therefore, obviously — well, not that you know of. But if there is no place for a school, they can't have a school.

Do you have any knowledge of solicitation practices? How do they get you and me to join?

MR. RAY: Well, they have — when I was in San Diego, the first day I was on staff, they took me down to downtown where they have a little office. It says, "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health," okay, which is the book, Dianetics. And they have big posters that they have out on the front sidewalk on one of the downtown streets, and they would stand out there and just start walking with a few people on down the street, just talking to them. And most people weren't interested, but they'd bring a few people in and they'd get them started.

MRS. GARVEY: How did they bring — do you have any idea how they brought those in that were brought in? What did they say to convince them?

If you have no idea, don't — I mean, don't go on. But I was just wondering if you did.

You obviously used a solicitation method with your phone calling?

MR. RAY: Right.

MRS. GARVEY: What did you do to sell those people that you got?

MR. RAY: All I did was call all my friends and say, "This is great. This'll help you out a lot." They trusted me; they believed me.

MRS. GARVEY: You didn't give any specific promises that —

MR. RAY: Didn't have to.

MRS. GARVEY: They took your word?

MR. RAY: They took my word for it.

MRS. GARVEY: I have no questions.

MR. LeCHER: A few quick ones, then, we'll go to the next witness.

For clarification: Are public people paying people?

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. LeCHER: The public are the paying people?

MR. RAY: Yes.

MR. LeCHER: When they would arrive there, what would — where would they eat, were they charged, and would they get — was the food included in their room?

MR. RAY: Their food was not included in their room.

There are two restaurants in the Fort Harrison. One is called the Hourglass, which is a nice dinner restaurant; they have entertainment. And there' s another one called The Lemon-Tree, and it's a cafeteria-style restaurant. And they would eat in either one.

They would have a menu with the prices listed, and above it it would be listed as donations, okay?

MR. LeCHER: Donations?

MR. RAY: Yeah. But if you weren't willing to pay that price they were asking for it, you weren't going to get any food, period.

MR. LeCHER: Did they charge the going price, like, a steak may be 8.95 in a restaurant or —

MR. RAY: Actually, their prices are a little bit more expensive.

MR.. CALDERBANK: Even with that overhead?

MR. LeCHER: Even with that overhead, right.

What would they charge for these rooms for these paying people? Did you say a hundred dollars a day?

MR. RAY: No, that's — that doesn't — that's not just for the room. That includes everything, okay, a public person would pay for there. All right. The rooms would run anywhere from — for eighty a day up to a hundred a day.

MR. LeCHER: But would you get a private room for that?

MR. RAY: Oh, yes. They did have rooms that were shared by public people. They would have a shared room —

MR. LeCHER: Like husband and wife in a double —

MR. RAY: Well, like, two men, you know, or two would share a room. They probably don't even know each other, but they'd share a room.

MR. LeCHER: All right.

How many public guests or paying guests would you have there on an average week for pay?

MR. RAY: Around three hundred on the average all the time.

MR. LeCHER: All right.

You mentioned earlier about a young person named Nancy Meader —

MR. RAY: Nadine.

MR. LeCHER: — Nadine Meader.

Explain how she was held there or kept there, the thirteen year old child.

MR. RAY: Well, by what was said to her from people in the Sea Org., okay, she kept herself there. That's — that's what really —

MR. LeCHER: That sounds odd, but —

MR. RAY: Yeah, but —

MRS. GARVEY: That's what he's saying, psychologically, you —

MR. RAY: Yeah. You — they — they get you psychologically, okay, so that everything you do you're being held by yourself — you're holding yourself there, okay? They don't have to do anything. All they've got to do is sit there and plant things into your head, okay, and you'll do it on your own.

MR. LeCHER: Well, I can see how parents could put somebody there. But I don't know how parents could allow them to stay there if they want them back. That, to me, is hard to figure out.

MR. RAY: Well, I can't testify to that.

MR. LeCHER: You mentioned everything was absolute insanity.

What do you mean by "absolute insanity"?

MR. RAY: The people walk around there like robots. They're robots that are programmed. I mean, they might as well be a machine, not a human. They might — they are not individuals, okay? Everybody is the same.

They study the same material, okay? They speak in the same terminology. They use the same slang words, the same this, the same that: everything is the same, okay? There's no room for being individual. And they don't build — they build you up at first to get you in, but once they get you in, they do exactly the opposite and they fire on you, okay, to lower your defenses. Once you've got your defenses lowered, you know, they've got you.

MR. LeCHER: One more thing. I — you mentioned these deplorable conditions and we can, of course, send inspectors over there tomorrow, and I would assume they'd be cleaned up or moved around and, then, I'm not sure of what that would prove. And it also may be harassment, too.

But I wonder about people living in a garage. I don't know how they could clean up a garage in twenty-four hours. I'm just suggesting that.

Was it suggested to you that you join the Army and go the Special Forces so that you'd be better able to infiltrate U.S. intelligence agencies?

MR. RAY: It wasn't worded like that.

When I was first — I didn't want to bring this up, okay, but I will bring it up now since you already did.

When I was first recruited into the Sea Org., they — I said, "Well, what kind of things, you know, do you do? I mean, what are you doing to get Scientology into this area and this area?" And they said, "Well, you know, if you were interested in putting Scientology into the government, we'll maybe put you in the Army in the Special Forces and get you into the CIA or something to put Scientology in there."

It was way up in the air, okay? They didn't — it wasn't a direct "Yes, you're going to do that," okay? It was just a suggestion. I could have — if I would have reached for it and grabbed it, okay, then, I would have had something. But otherwise, it's — I think that piece of information is worthless.

MR. LeCHER: Thank you.

That's it, then, for this witness, unless there's something that you, Commissioners, want to ask at this particular time. There isn't.

I want to thank you very much for coming to see us today, David.

MRS. GARVEY: Good luck.

MR. LeCHER: And good luck to you. You've been very cooperative, and you're a very bright young man. And we wish you well.

MR. RAY: Thank you very much.

MR. LeCHER: I hope you get your family back.

MR. RAY: Yeah, I hope so, too.

MR. LeCHER: Thank you.

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