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CITY OF CLEARWATER COMMISSION HEARINGS RE: THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY |
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MR. LeCHER: Our next person — we have a couple named Adell and Ernest Hartwell.
MR. HARTWELL:
Mrs. Hartwell's not here yet. She went back to change clothes. Mr. Hartwell, you'll be sworn in, first. Madam Clerk, Miss Goudeau. ERNEST HARTWELL, a witness herein, having first been duly sworn by a Clerk for the City of Clearwater, was examined and testified as follows: MR. FLYNN: Before Mr. Hartwell begins, I'd just like to put a few documents into evidence. MR. LeCHER: I'd like to ask Mr. Hartwell the few basic questions that we're asking every witness. Mr. Hartwell, you are Mr. Hartwell, sir, are you -- MR. HARTWELL: Yes. MR. LeCHER: All right. Are you appearing here today and testifying under oath voluntarily? MR. HARTWELL: Yes. MR. LeCHER: Have you been paid by anyone for your testimony, other than expenses for coming to Clearwater? MR. HARTWELL: No. MR. LeCHER: Do you have a lawsuit against the Church of Scientology? MR. HARTWELL: Yes. MR. LeCHER: Does the Church of Scientology have a lawsuit against you? MR. HARTWELL: Yes. MR. LeCHER: Yes to both questions. Has anyone suggested to you that you should state anything but the truth or has anyone suggested that you change your testimony for any reason? MR. HARTWELL: No. MR. LeCHER: Mr. Flynn. MR. FLYNN: Exhibit 34 -- THE CLERK: It's 36. MR. FLYNN: -- oh, 36, is a policy letter from the Church of Scientology from the Executive Series, entitled "Governing policy." Could we put that on the overhead projector, please? (A copy of a policy letter, entitled "Governing policy," was marked as Exhibit No. 36, as of this date.) MR. LeCHER: How many do you have? MR. FLYNN: I'm going to put two on the projector and introduce four. As you can see, this policy states at the top, "Governing Policy. The governing policy of finance is to a, make money." Then, going down to j, k, and 1, it says, make money, make more money, make other people produce, so as to make money." It is copyrighted L. Ron Hubbard. The copyright is in the lower lefthand column below -- MR. HATCHETT: Would you please raise that for me? MR. FLYNN: Further down, right at the bottom. And Exhibit 37 is a document, entitled "List of Services, Church of Scientology of California, The Flag Land Base." This particular document appears in a -- as a brochure, and it's distributed in their organizations throughout the world. And as you can see, some of the courses are rather expensive. MRS. GARVEY: What's that one thing? Leadership -- is it OEC? MR. FLYNN: For instance, the first course up in the upper lefthand corner under "Flag Spiritual Counseling Service," there appears "L10, L11, L12, twenty-five hours, $10,638.89." And the courses, as you go down, are generally in the -- seven thousand, three thousand, thirteen thousand, twelve thousand, eight thousand, as you can see. MR. CALDERBANK: How much does it cost to complete the NOTS auditing, the NOTS program? Is that a twenty- five thousand dollar program? MR. FLYNN: I'm not really sure. It changes at various times. The person to ask would be Ed Walters. But I've heard various figures of ranging into the forty and fifty thousand dollar range. In the middle of the document, it appears there is a notation, "package Prices. Elementary Evaluator Course, $10,638.84; OEC" -- I believe that stands for Senior OEC and Internship -- "$22,341.00." And then, "OEC SNR OEC FEBC," which the witness mentioned, which is Flag Executive Briefing Course, is "$37,945.38." And there is another -- MR. LeCHER: Do they get -- MR. FLYNN: -- course there for forty-two thousand dollars. MR. LeCHER: Where do they get these odd amounts? Is that tax? MRS. GARVEY: What is OEC? What is the OEC, the one there for a million dollars? MR. FLYNN: I believe that's an Organization Executive Course. MR. BERFIELD: Mr. Flynn, on these documents, unless we assume -- unless you tell us to the contrary, these are all available to us from some source, valid source, that we can look at; is that correct? MR. FLYNN: That is precisely correct. This particular document, you can walk across the street and pick it up. MR. BERFIELD: Oh. But I meant the ones that you introduced previously, they're just -- they're copies. MR. FLYNN: This particular document, the Governing Policy document, comes right out of a series of books which, now that you brought it up, we will bring in and put in front of you all the books. And I believe the cost of the whole set is in the range of two or three thousand dollars for a ten- or twelve-volume green set, in which this policy appears right in that set under "Finances." MRS. GARVEY: How many times do people use their credit cards for a donation? MR. FLYNN: I don't know; I really don't know. MR. LeCHER: Is that -- I can't see that far. Does that say 1,773,000 -- MRS. GARVEY: There's a few extra numbers there. MR. HATCHETT: That's OEC? MR. LeCHER: -- or it's a billion? MR; HATCHETT: Yeah, OEC. MR. LeCHER: The OEC. The fifteen cents -- or is that a page? MR. CALDERBANK: That's a dash. MRS. GARVEY: That's a dash. MR. FLYNN: I think it's -- I think Mr. Walters is probably the one who could answer that. It appears like, it's $1,063.00 and eighty or ninety cents. MR. LeCHER: OEC under Flag Administration Courses, then, OEC -- MRS. GARVEY: There's a range, maybe, from eleven thousand to ten-seventeen? MR. CALDERBANK: Yeah, that's what I said. MR. FLYNN: Which one are you talking about? MR. LeCHER: Flag Ship Administration, the third one down, OEC. MR. WALTERS: Yeah, that would be seventeen. MR. LeCHER: Okay. MR. WALTERS: Yeah, that's the range. It's not one million dollars; there's no course one million dollars. MRS. GARVEY: Oh, good. MR. FLYNN: As you will note at the bottom: "Attention credit card users, you may use your Visa or MasterCharge Card." MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Flynn, are you going to point out the fact about, the hotels and so forth, and the suggestions that "The above room donations are for single or double occupancy," and also the restaurants, I believe, are referred to. "The suggested donation per room for dining is $80.00." MR. FLYNN: Yeah. As Mr. Shoemaker has just done, he's pointed that out. And the costs appear to be regulated or fixed right next to the notation to the type of room that's being received. And as the witness just testified and, as I believe, Mr. Kelley testified, those are flat fees that are paid. Okay. And we will simply have marked -- which we won't go into now -- two more exhibits: one, entitled "Accommodations," describing the Fort Harrison Hotel, and another one describing donations, as the next two exhibits. (A copy of a document, entitled "List of Services," was marked as Exhibit No. 37, as of this date; A copy of a document, entitled "Accommodations," was marked as Exhibit No. 38, as of this date; A copy of a document describing donations was marked as Exhibit No. 39, as of this date.) MR. LeCHER: Now, you're name is Mr. Hartwell. Is your wife with you, yet? Do you want to wait for Mrs. Hartwell, or can we -- MR. FLYNN: No. MR. LeCHER: Mrs. Hartwell -- when the officer comes, would you just lead her down front to join her husband. All right. Would you like us to just -- would you like to tell us in your own words or would you like us to lead you through it for your testimony? MR. HARTWELL: I guess, I'll go through part of it in my own words. MR. LeCHER: Why don't you do that, sir. Go ahead. MR. HARTWELL: Well, I've lived in Las Vegas for a number of years, and I met my wife some fifteen years ago and we got married. We got married. And one of our activities -- our side activity is dancing. We both enjoy dancing very much and became pretty accomplished at it. And one of the choreographers for the show in Las Vegas wanted to choreograph a comedy dance routine, which is like ballroom dancing, and she chose us to teach. So, we thought of a good comedy routine, and about the time we finished it, we'd be just waiting to go to work. She had suggested that we go to Scientology -- she was a Scientologist -- and take a Comm course and take, also, the course she was teaching in How to project Yourself to the Public. We did do that, and we thought it would be an awfully good thing. I had never had anything to do with Scientology up until that point. So, I followed her suggestion, and I went in and took the Comm course. My memory's not the best, but if I remember right, I think that was in 1979. MR. LeCHER: Good. MR. HARTWELL: So, just about the time that I had finished the Comm course -- again, I don't know, it might have been ten days or something along that line -- I was approached by representatives from the L. Ron Hubbard Personal Vocation. They didn't represent themselves at that time that way. But anyway, they put to us a proposition of us going into the Church of Scientology and following our dancing career. Of course, that was the one thing that appealed to us pretty strongly because we -- but of all the other things that it offered, too. It seemed like I got -- or I finally thought, "Well, it's a pretty good program." Now, my wife, of course, became more of in favor of it much sooner than I did, because I was pretty skeptical about a lot of it. But to start off with, her two daughters were in Scientology. The oldest daughter had been in it for a number of years and my stepson, or her daughter's husband, had been in it for a number of years, and he often talked to us about things about Scientology: the things that they were doing, what they were accomplishing, and some of the great things that they were doing. I always had kind of a "Well, let's wait and see" attitude about it. And I never did see any of the results. But anyway, I started checking up on it when they presented this program to us. Oh, I almost forgot. The younger daughter, Fre-Dawn, she was about nine years old when we married. So, I took -- helped raise her, too, actually as if she was my own child. MRS. GARVEY: We know it's tough. MR. HARTWELL: I'm sorry; I thought I was over that. MR. HATCHETT: We can wait. MRS. GARVEY: Some things you never get over. MR. HARTWELL: Anyway, they had -- I'll explain this, too. She was in junior high school, she was a brilliant child; she was on the honor roll and she did very well in that type of thing there. But when she got into high school, for some reason -- in that period of just a few months' time between junior high school and high school -- she went wrong, and we never could quite figure out what happened. But she didn't like high school. She couldn't seem to get adjusted to high school. She started ditching and doing various things like this. So, the other daughter was in Scientology and talked her Mom into sending her over to Scientology and see if they couldn't do something about her education. They had a much superior system, program, and all this sort of thing. So, they sold her on the idea of going in and leaving school all together. So, this was necessary for I mean, I became pretty concerned about that. I wanted to know what kind of a program they had. I went down there to try to find out what they were teaching her. And they were just telling her, you know -- telling me they don't want to be concerned -- this isn't my concern, this is her Mom's concern. And I got, you know, a lot of baloney from them. So, I tried to talk to Adell about it, but I never could get anywhere with her, either. Well, between her and her daughter, they both accepted the Scientology program, signed her in, and sent her off. Just like that, she was gone. So, I didn't have anything to do with -- I just thought things weren't right. And I couldn't get a hold of anything that led me to believe that it was right. So, in the meantime, I'll come back to where they presented us with the program of serving under L. Ron Hubbard. And some of the things that they presented to us: One was, of course, our living conditions, where we would live and where we were going. And they had told us that we were going to Clearwater, Florida. And we were shown pictures of the hotel here of our own room -- we would have a private room -- and the grounds, and we would have access to all the facilities that were there. And being right on the ocean, that kind of appealed to me as one thing. Well, before I even made a decision on that, I went to the library and checked, you know, as much as I could on the area here, the weather conditions, and so on and so forth. And I went -- I said, "well." Then, of course, what they promised us was a five-hour working day, they promised to let us follow our dancing career. Heck, I thought we were another Ginger Rogers and Fred Astaire team -- produce, in other words, our comedy routine, our dancing routine, and movie work. So, this, of course, appealed to us, something we were very much interested in. And I was already scheduled and was supposed to become an editor and/or a photographer. So, again, this appealed to me, too. But -- quite a number of things. And one of the things that I did was I went to visit a fellow who had been aboard ship. I went and talked to Mary's daughter who had been here to Clearwater and had been at the hotel and stayed there. And they had nothing but good things to say about it, nothing but good things to say about it. So, over a two- to three-week period. I checked out everything that they had to offer. I checked everybody I could, everywhere I could, and I got nothing but good reports. And I said, "Hey, it looks all right," and accepted. But under the conditions I accepted, number one, transportation. I had two automobiles at the time and didn't need them and they didn't want anybody to take them with them. We couldn't do that, but they had all kinds of transportation here. We would have transportation wherever we needed it at the hotel. They had cars and we could use any one of them. So, this was agreeable. The living quarters, I told you what was promised to us. Well, I finally agreed to go ahead with it. And the arrangements that we were to get ourselves to Los Angeles, and they would reimburse for our expenses of getting there and, then, they would put us on a plane and fly us to Clearwater, Florida. So, of course, we were all excited about the whole thing because at the time it seemed real good. They gave us the address of the Fort Harrison, the Clearwater Hotel. I mean, the -- MR. LeCHER: The Sandcastle? MR. HARTWELL: 210 Harrison? MRS. GARVEY: That's Fort Harrison. MR. LeCHER: The Fort Harrison, okay. MR. HARTWELL: The address they gave us where we would be. Then, they gave us the local phone number here to give to other members of our family, address and phone number of where we were going to be in case they wanted to get in touch in case an emergency came up and so forth. So, we were fairly convinced that this is where we were coming to. Now, when we got to Los Angeles, they took our belongings into the headquarters there in Los Angeles and sent us to a motel. The next morning, a car came over to pick us up and take us, supposedly, to the airport. So, we left the motel we was at under very hush, hush conditions, you couldn't talk. And he left and drove around down on Main Street and off on side streets, checking the car to make sure it wasn't bugged, checking around make sure he wasn't. If this went on, I thought, really, they were beginning to have questions about us. And he explained to us that he had to take precautions because they didn't want anybody to know where L. Ron Hubbard was; they didn't want anybody following them or that sort of thing. So, they finally ended up in Glendale, a town that I had lived in, and ended up on the top floor of a public parking lot. And then, he pulled up alongside of another car and there we were to be transferred to the other car, our goods. We took with us the things we had with us; they transferred to the other car, and the other car took off. And still, we thought we were going to the airport. Well, they leave town, and the way he's going, I finally says, "Hey, I'm very familiar with this area. What's going on? You're not going to the airport. Where are we going?" And then, he said, "Well, we're sorry. We just couldn't tell you exactly where you were going. We had to tell you were going to Florida. But you're not going to Florida, you're going to southern California." Well, I mean, the shock for both of us. I just -- I ended up speechless; I didn't even know what to say or think for a while. I was totally spellbound. But we finally agreed to go on down there and at least look into things. One of the things -- one of the big sales points, of course, was that they had assured us that we would be reunited with our daughter, Fre-Dawn, that, of course, she was going to the same area. And I guess I ought to go ahead and mention, too, that L. Ron Hubbard was producing these movies as promotional things for the Church and for -- also, to get down all his theories and philosophy and everything on movie. And it took forever to do that, and this type of story they would give us. So, we finally figured, "Well, the only thing we could do is go on down and see what the conditions were and pick it up from there." That was the first real shock and disappointment we had, the first one. But now, we get down to the location. It was a few miles out of Palm springs in the middle of the desert, the last place I would go to if I had a choice and know where I'm going to. I knew the area, had been there before several times, and it was just like Las Vegas. Hey, I wanted to get the heck out of this desert, and I wanted to go to Clearwater, Florida. But anyway, we got down there. The next job was seeing the deteriorated and dilapidated condition of the organization. I mean, we were at the point where I expected to go down there and find, you know, gentlemen like yourselves dressed in suits and ties and, you know, clean and adequate buildings that you have here. I was absolutely shocked to see everybody running around in shorts, ragged clothes, dirty, and unkempt. And I just -- I couldn't believe my eyes what I was seeing. And of course, the ranch they took us to was in the same condition. There were weeds falling all over, the lawns had all died, the housing, the buildings needed painting. Everything was in a dilapidated and run down condition, neglected condition more than anything. So, that's shock number two. Then -- let's see, how do I explain this? Well, they had three ranches down there. They took us to work on the main ranch. On the main ranch was their main activity, fifty, sixty acres, something like that. And we met our daughter there. They brought her out. And then, we were told that where we were living was on the other end. We didn't get to see it until late that night. So, we spent the afternoon there. Now, another thing that was very disturbing to us, too, was that all of our personal belongings were left in Los Angeles. I think we had a suitcase or two that we took with us and our overnight bag and a few things like that. Otherwise, when we went to this place, most of our things were still in Los Angeles. And so, we just sat around the ranch that day, saw this place and that place and what was happening. That night, about eleven o'clock, we were taken over to what was supposed to be our living quarters. And boy, you talk about shock number -- whatever number it was. I -- we just couldn't believe it. They put us into a little shack that apparently had been -- I don't know, it was just a little, three-room shack on the edge of the ranch there. The driver took us up to the door and said, "That's where you'll be," backed off, and left us. We go inside and what a mess; we couldn't believe it. And of course, the most -- the worst thing about it is that the place was just totally overrun with bugs, insects, and all kinds of desert whatever you call them. They give us a set of sheets and told us that there was another room -- another couple that had been in the room at the other end, and they had just taken the sheets and put them in one of the other rooms. And this wasn't big enough. The facilities consisted of a mattress on the floor. So, when somebody turned the lights on, of course, it stirred up the bugs and everything began to fly all over the place. I pulled the sheets down to change the sheets in the place, and I swear there were at least a hundred bugs on those sheets. My wife and I just couldn't believe it. So, we just gave up right then. And we went over to another main house where other Scientologists were in there. So, we went over there and simply told the guy in charge, "Hey, there's no way we're going to stay in that place. I mean, there's been some big, bad mistake. This is the limit." So, they had this main -- this Master at Arms they call him. He came over and he said, "Well, there's nothing we can do about it now. It was probably midnight by this time. He said, "Just go in and clean the place the best you can, stay there the night, and we'll have a better place for you tomorrow." So, we argued with him for quite some time, but there wasn't any more I could get from him. So, we finally said, "There's nothing else we can do, so we'll have to spend the night." So, one of the other arguments about this spot -- we had been forewarned when we got there that they were having a lot of trouble with break-ins and burglars. We were close to the Mexican border and they were breaking into places and stealing. And they had just broken in the shack we were in the night before. They told us about this. The bathroom window was broken and they had it boarded up. So, I said, "Well, I don't like the idea of being in here, either." We didn't want to be there. "Don't worry," he says, "there's a burglar alarm system all around here." He said, "Didn't you see it in there?" I said, "Yeah, I saw the tape for the burglar alarm; I'm familiar with those things. But it's not connected. How is it going to ring an alarm?" "Oh, we're going to fix that tomorrow." Of course, they never fixed it tomorrow. They never got rid of the bugs or anything else. The next morning, we were picked up and taken back to the main ranch. Well, we were just furious by then, both us. So, I went up to the person who was responsible for getting us there -- I happened to see him the first thing -- and I just chewed him out. I said, "Get me the hell out of here; I ain't staying in this place." Well, they told us to calm down and finally got us to calm down. They took us into the -- sent us into the chaplain. Of course, we didn't get to see the chaplain. The chaplain was gone, so we spent about three hours with the chaplain's wife. Of course, all she did was just lie to us again: lie after lie after lie about they had another ranch and they were going to put us in that and we'd get our own private room. It was real nice and they were just refurbishing it that day and they were sorry about the inconvenience, but we were brought down way ahead of time. I said, "You say we were brought down ahead of time. The girl and the man who came down to get us into the place were budging us daily to get here because they were holding up production on the movies, and they had to get us here right away to get things going. So," I said, "we came here as quick as we could." Then -- so, anyway, I spent about -- first, I said, "Just get us the hell out of here. We're going home. I won't stay here -- no way." She said, "Well, you can't leave here." I said, "What do you mean, I can't leave here? Are you trying to tell me I'm a prisoner here?" "Well, you' re not a prisoner." I said, "Well, then, fine. If I'm not a prisoner, get me out of here. That's all I want; I want transportation out of here, and that's all there is to it." Well, this went on about three hours and, finally, we finally said, "Well, we'll agree to take a better look at it. This is nothing what we expected or were told. But," we said, "there's a problem involved: all of our personal belongings, and we don't want to leave without them." So, we managed to stay -- decided to stay, at least a few more days, to see what happened. Well, nothing happened. Now, we went to work. Our working conditions were not the same as explained before: seven o'clock in the morning till eleven, twelve at night. I started belly-aching the first week for my weekend off that I was supposed to have, and they said, "You don't get a weekend off." Well, I went through all that stuff with the chaplain: "Sorry they lied to you about it. There's nothing we can do now. We're punishing the person that told you all these things." In fact, they were. The three people involved were in the RPF when we got there. And I argued, of course, and said, "I didn't give a damn what you do with them. I want to know what you're going to do with me?" Now, the other thing, too -- let me explain this to you here. The other things that make a lot of difference to the things I have to say is that we were not programmed into Scientology; we were not brainwashed. We were not following a great guiding light or any great pull that L. Ron Hubbard had. So, this, then, here -- you know, the other people who went there -- all the other people who went there, they accepted those conditions. It was all right with them. They didn't seem to mind the bugs and the snakes and all the other things that were involved there: the lousy food, the lousy living conditions, all the dirt. They didn't seem to mind that. Be we did. I mean, I would never have gone if I had any idea what I was going to find. So, this covers that. But anyway, I decided to make another try at it; my wife and I both decided. Of course, this is the part that -- and one of the other things that was the main reason for us getting into it is my wife had taken -- we both had -- a swine flu shot, and she had quite a reaction from that. I think they call it dysentery or I don't know what it was. In other words, she had a condition that was not correctable, and we'd been to a number of doctors. It had gone on for about three, four, five, six months. That was one thing that they had assured us Scientology had the knowledge and knowhow to correct. Now, when somebody has a diarrhea condition like that for four, five months, believe me, they are pretty weak and pretty run down. They're just a wreck healthwise because they feel in a bad state. So, of course, that's one of the things I gave in on, and realizing that perhaps they had the answer or would have the answer for -- to bring her back to health. So, that's, of course, one of the other reasons we decided to stay. I wanted to see what they were going to do for her. Well, they didn't do anything for her. And it went on. We asked for auditing and medical care and various things like this here to get her started on a program of going back to good health. Well, "We don't have any auditors right now." I said, "Well, you told us to come down and that you had the top auditors in the nation and they really had this thing under control." "Well, we don't have any. We're starting to train some." So, another big let down in a long line on that issue. In other words, it was just nothing but a total pack of lies the entire time that I was there. And I kept watching for the rest of my personal belongings to get there from Los Angeles. When they finally got there, I went back and I told them, "Hey, I want out. There's no way that I intend to stay here. You totally misrepresented to me and this is not what I'm going to put up with. I have no desire whatsoever to dedicate my life to L. Ron Hubbard." And -- MR. LeCHER: Tell me how you -- MR. HARTWELL: I beg your pardon? MR. LeCHER: I'm just trying to get -- all right. You're moving right along. MR. HARTWELL: So, anyway, I regularly told them I wanted to leave. They wanted a board meeting, and they wanted to know why and all this -- and all the reasons why, and I had to give them all the reasons why. So, it was then a matter of deciding what to do, what the next step was. They had decided to release me. They sent me out the next day, and they were releasing Dell and I both. Now, this went on for, again, a matter of two weeks more before they finally released me. They had excuses every day why I couldn't go. First, it was one thing, the next day it was something else, the next day it was something else. This went on day after day. And then, in the meantime, too, they had started a program of forcing Dell and I against each other, which, I understand is a common practice with anybody they have trouble with in Scientology. The first thing they do is work the couple against each other. And they had started this and got it going pretty good. I got to where I wasn't quite believing what Dell said and she wasn't quite believing what I said. And they were making her believe that they couldn't do anything for her about her health program until they got rid of me, because I was the one that was causing the trouble for her. And they began to have her believe this. So, I finally got out. It was one of the hardest things -- MR. FLYNN: If I may interrupt just a minute, Mayor: That last point is a very significant point in the consideration of the commission. And you may recall -- just make a note of that -- that they led Mrs. Hartwell to believe that her illness was being caused by Mr. Hartwell and you will hear in later testimony precisely why. But you might make a specific note of that point. MR. HARTWELL: So, anyway, as I started to say, this was all -- on the last day, they made a decision the wife wouldn't go with me; she would stay there. And we sat down and talked it over, and we finally decided that maybe there was something to what they were saying, number one. Also, was the fact that I had to go back to Las Vegas and obtain a job. I didn't have any at that time; I no longer had a job. I didn't have any insurance; I didn't have enough money to get the medical treatment for her; I had no way of covering anything while I was there. So, we finally decided the best thing to do was to go back -- for me to go back and leave her there and, perhaps, they would take care of her then. And then, the other thing, too, is the daughter was so brainwashed by that time, I couldn't reason with her anymore. I mean, I saw what a hopeless mess it was, and I tried to reason with her a number of times, but she just wouldn't accept anything I had to say at all. She was totally brainwashed into -- she was in heaven. So, it was hard to do, to leave. MR. LaCHER: Let's take about a five-minute break. (Whereupon, a recess was taken.) (Whereupon, the hearing resumed.) MR. LeCHER: Staff, Commissioners, consultants, ladies and gentlemen, take your seats. Officers, when the people are in, close the door. Mrs. Garvey -- okay. MRS. GARVEY: Right here. MR. LeCHER: Vision, are we on? All right. We are back from a short recess. And if you're just joining us, we're talking to Mr. Ernest Hartwell who was promised to come to Mecca, to Clearwater, sold his possessions and tried to find his daughter, and somehow ended up in a desert. And so far, he's gone three thousand miles away from here. ERNEST HARTWELL, Resumed. MR. LeCHER: And I'd like you to continue where you left off, Sir. MR. HARTWELL: Okay. First thing I want to say is I'm sorry. MRS. GARVEY: No, that's fine. MR. HATCHETT: No. MR. BERFIELD: No apologies. MR. HARTWELL: That was one of the bad things about the Church: breaking up families. It seems like they do everything they can to destroy families and happiness. For me, like I said, it was the hardest thing I ever had to do in my life, leaving them there in the condition that they were in and leaving them with a man that was totally insane. Now, I hadn't said it before, but I want to say that. A number of people, when I came back, asked me what I thought of L. Ron Hubbard, and I told them, "The man is crazy; he's absolutely insane." Now, that's my own personal belief, my observations. He was a screaming maniac, the three or four times that I saw him. One of the times I saw him, he came in and issued conflicting orders. He'd tell you to do one thing and turn around two minutes later and tell you not to do it. And he expected you to do those orders. Anyway, I got out -- and then, after I got back to Las Vegas, it was a matter of about a month and-a-half before I went back to work. And when I got back to work -- shortly after I got back to work, the chaplain from there, Fred Burke, came to Las Vegas and approached me with a story that he had heard I was responsible for disclosing the location where L. Ron Hubbard was. Of course, I told him he was wrong, and I said, "Chase it down." "Fine, I'll chase it down." Then, he produced our marriage license and told me that he obtained the marriage license from my wife and that she wanted a divorce. And this was something that just left me speechless because I couldn't believe it. -- I felt we had a real strong thing going for each other; we did have. We were real close to each other. We never had any real trouble until this thing came up in our married lives. So, I just couldn't believe it. But anyway, he left. And after he left, the more I thought about it, the more confused than anything else I became on it. And so, I -- oh, the other thing is that he wanted to know if they could use my address, and would I accept passports for Fre-Dawn and Dell. And I wondered what for, and he said, "Well, they're moving out of the United States, going to a foreign country, so they'll have to have passports. And they have to have a local address to send the passport to." And so, I told him, "Yes." You know, I was just so shocked, I couldn't figure out what they wanted. Then, of course, after that, they had me worked on me, and it became more upsetting. But I did manage to get Dell back home a month or so after that. Now, just shortly after she came back home, they approached Dell and said that she would have to pay a five thousand, five hundred dollar freeloader debt that was incurred for the time that she was in there for expenses and for services that she had received, or she would have to go back on staff as a member of the Church of Scientology locally. So, when I heard that I just -- I almost went right through the ceiling. So, I went down to the office, the GO's office, and told them, "Hey, there's some big, fat mistake. We were cleared of it and notice was put on the bulletin board that we were being released free and clear of any debts. And now, you're coming back and telling me we owe five thousand dollars. This is a big mistake." So, they called me back a couple of days later and said, "Well, Hartwell, we want to inform you that now you owe five thousand, five hundred- dollars, as well as your wife. So, you have a ten thousand, five hundred dollar debt to Scientology." Jesus. Of course, I went, you know, as far as I could go with it, locally: back to her daughter, back to them. We had been writing letters back and forth, and I kept getting stalled and stalled and stalled. And so, I finally went down there to get some help, and I told them -- hell, but I got the letter then that I was free and clear, we didn't owe any debts. I went back to Las Vegas, and her daughter, the next morning, came to our house and wanted us to go down to Scientology and sign another document. She wanted us to sign another document. I said, "Why do I want to sign another document? I want to be clear of them and they want to be clear of me." Well, they're, of course, a highly paranoid operation. That's what they are. They're just scared to death that somebody is going to let it be known where Ron is or some of the secrets of the Church. So, we spent three hours with her daughter, thereabouts, arguing about: "Hey, I've been through this goddamn thing for days. I don't want to ever hear anything more about it. Get out of here and leave me alone. I ain't going to -- I ain't signing no papers." And this discussion went on about that they just had a couple of questions they wanted ask us. I said, "Ask me." She said, "They want to do that down at the Church." "No way." So, I finally got them out of there. Then -- I got them out with the agreement that we would go down in a couple of days and find out what it was all about and see what they wanted. So, we went down in a couple more days and, now, they've got another -- they want me to sign another letter, stating I owe them thirty thousand dollars if I say anything more about the Church of Scientology, and I had welshed on my agreement with them by threatening and this sort of thing here. I had threatened them, of course. But I had done it. And I was just trying to get them off my back. So, now, this goes on. They tell me what they want. I said, "Hey, I ain't signing an agreement like that. You don't have to worry about me." Now, I outlined the agreement. "Of all the things that we were supposed to do, I held up my part of the bargain on everything. I said nothing about anything. But you people have double-crossed me, lied to me, and double dealt me time after time after time. Now, I want a letter from the Church of Scientology that says you're going to leave me alone. And you get off my back. I'm not on yours; you get off my back." I told them how to write the letter. Well, of course, two days later they called me back and told me, "Yeah, we have an agreement here just like you wanted. Come down and sign it." So, I went down and it was the same thing. So, we had another half a dozen meetings and, finally, the organization said there was nothing more they could do about it. I said, "Well, fine." Now, harassment went on for months after that. They sent a fellow out from the main organization in Los Angeles, and he started a big harassment campaign. And it ended up by them finally telling me that they had definite proof that I was trying to extort money from the Church of Scientology and, they were going to put me in jail if I didn't sign the new agreement. This agreement here -- and we had some arguing on this one, too -- but they were trying to get me to state -- sign statements to the fact that I had been an alcoholic all my life, that I had totally neglected my own children, and that I had been abusive to my children: I was a poor father and poor provider. And I had just a number of inflammatory statements like this. Of course, the last statement was that I did now owe the Church of Scientology sixty thousand dollars, and I was supposed to sign this thing. I said, "Hey, no way." So -- and not in such nice terms like that, you know. Anyway, that same night, they had sent Dell's daughter to our house where we were living. And she went there -- she'll tell you her version of the story -- to threaten her with our lives. So, after that -- up until that point, I didn't realize what demons we were dealing with. I didn't realize that they were lying and trying to do everything that they could to destroy us. Actually, they had cost us our jobs, cost both of us our jobs. They had us moved out of the place we were living in. I don't -- Dell will probably tell you about other things that happened to us. But that was the last -- when they threatened to put us in jail, I went to the police department then and, in fact, I did fear for my life. I got scared, and I did get scared, because it's a known fact that there are a lot of suicides connected with Scientology. I didn't want to be one of them. So, I went to the police department and told them what happened. And the next day, I took Dell down and she made a report on the same thing. And then, I went to the newspapers. I told them everything about where L. Ron Hubbard was, what the Church was like, what they were doing. I went to television stations; I went to radio stations; I got on the air, and I knew if it got public, they'd quit. I figured that's the only way of having my freedom. And sure enough, it worked. They didn't bother me from the day after. The first time to come on, they didn't bother me a bit. So, I guess that's the last story of the things that happened. MR. LeGHER: Did they sue you? MR. HARTWELL: Well, yes. And after that they brought a lawsuit against me. MR. CALDERBANK: What was the -- MR. HARTWELL: Well, I forget what the -- MR. LeCHER: Well, let's not get into that. They left you alone as far as dirty tricks, but they did bring a lawsuit against you? MR. HARTWELL: Yes, right. MR. LeCHER: Okay. MR. HARTWELL: Oh, yes, here's several things that happened now. They, too, went public, and they made public statements to the fact that I was an alcoholic, I had a drinking problem, that I had murdered my father. They took -- let's see, there were several other things they brought out; I don't know. Oh, there's another thing is that they ran a story in the newspapers that I was guilty of extortion, that they had definite proof in the Church of Scientology that Ernie Hartwell was trying to extort money from them. They ran that in the newspapers and on television, the same story. So, these things, of course, happened, too. MR. LeCHER: Tell me about -- your daughter tried to kill you, did you say, or threatened your life? MR. HARTWELL: I beg your pardon? MR. LeCHER: You say your daughter tried to kill you or threatened your life? MR. HARTWELL: No, she didn't. I think, probably, it would be better if my wife would tell that story because I might --
MR. LeCHER: Why don't we have your wife come up now and tell her -- what
she'd like to say. Then, we
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