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CITY OF CLEARWATER COMMISSION HEARINGS RE: THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY |
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ROSIE PACE, Resumed. MR. LeCHER: One more question: Didn't it occur to you that the education being a young woman yourself, and at thirteen, didn't it occur to you that this is wrong to have a young an organization to have a group of their youth being functional illiterates? MS. PACE: Yes. Up until a few years ago, I really didn't think about it. I thought Scientology was the most important thing you could do. And I didn't believe that education was harmful, but I thought Scientology was more important. But recently, I've been looking and I've seen Lori's little girl, my niece. And she is she's going through what I'm what I had gone through, catching up on work and just because of a Scientology school, that now she has to go back two grades when she's a brilliant child. So, now, it makes absolutely no sense. It's harmful. You know, I believe in education. MR. LeCHER: When did you first think that Mr. Ron's, as you have referred to him, background was suspect? MS. PACE: I didn't think about his background up until, maybe, three months ago when I actually saw things. I just knew there were terrible outnesses in the organization, and I knew that I knew that, he was behind it. MR. LeCHER: That what was behind it? MS. PACE: I knew that he was behind it. I just didn't have any proof. MR. LeCHER: You just didn't question MS. PACE: I just thought it was the organization was insane. I
thought L.
Ron Hubbard didn't know anything about it. This is up until a couple
of years MR. LeCHER: So, until three months ago, you still thought L. Ron Hubbard was a nuclear physicist, an engineer, a war hero MS. PACE: Yes. MR. LeCHER: and he cured his own blindness? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. LeCHER: Thank you. Mr. Calderbank. MR. CALDERBANK: Yeah. Hi, Rosie. MS. PACE: Hello. MR. CALDERBANK: In your education background, do you Scientology encouraged you to leave at thirteen MS. PACE: Yes. MR. CALDERBANK: to get out of the public school system? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. CALDERBANK: Did they ever give you, after that, any regimented or any type of education in math, reading, English, literature, anything that you would expect in the New York school system? MS. PACE: No. MR. CALDERBANK: Is you also heard Lori's testimony. MS. PACE: Yes. MR. CALDERBANK: Can you substantiate what she said about her daughter, her test scores, what percentile she's in compared to what she's been able to achieve? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. CALDERBANK: And she also mentioned that Scientology, basically, does not want people to get an education in the public realm. MS. PACE: Right. MR. CALDERBANK: Would you say that it's a common policy in Scientology to keep people out of public school to get an education? MS. PACE: I would say so. They look down on education. MR. CALDERBANK: In your own personal experience, do you fear for children that enter Scientology that they are not, in your own personal experience, getting the education that's required? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. CALDERBANK: In auditing you said you were a very high level auditor. MS. PACE: Yes. MR. CALDERBANK: This is one of the largest ways that money comes into the organization? MS. PACE: Yes, it is. MR. CALDERBANK: And you said that each person that you audited felt that he or she their auditing information was confidential? MS. PACE: Yes, they believed it was confidential. MR. CALDERBANK: And you believed and they believed, also, that it was based on scientific work and research data? MS. PACE: I believe so. MR. CALDERBANK: Well, would any of these people have bought or purchased auditing if they were told that the files would not be confidential? Ms. PACE: I don't no. MR. CALDERBANK: They would not? MS. PACE: I don't think so. MR. CALDERBANK: In your opinion MS. PACE: In my opinion. MR. CALDERBANK: as an experienced auditor and one of the highest auditors that Scientology bestows on someone? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. CALDERBANK: Have you ever seen a NED for OTs or NOTS rally? MS. PACE: A NOTS MR. CALDERBANK: A NOTS rally. MS. PACE: No. Oh, yes, I have; I'm sorry. MR. CALDERBANK: You have? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. CALDERBANK: And you saw the money that would come in for these services? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. CALDERBANK: If those people found out that Mr. Hubbard spent no years researching, would they spend the twenty-five thousand up to twenty-five to forty thousand dollars for the courses if they were told that he did no research? MS. PACE: In my opinion, no. MR. CALDERBANK: Would they if told that he had flunked out of science courses, would they pay this money? MS. PACE: I don't know. I don't think so. MR. CALDERBANK: I just want your personal opinion. MS. PACE: Okay. MR. CALDERBANK: And did they ever tell you that the auditing would cure your physical headaches? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. CALDERBANK: They MS. PACE: I was told, when I joined the Sea Org. three years ago in Los Angeles. I told my recruiter that I get severe headaches. And he said, "Don't worry about it." He said, "NED for OTs handles that right away." He said, "No problem." So, I joined the Sea Org. MR. CALDERBANK: So, based on his promise to cure your headaches, you spent the money or gave your work to get into NED for OTs? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. CALDERBANK: Did they ever say anything that they could do anything with your eyesight? MS. PACE: No. MR. CALDERBANK: And you were when you were the last area of questioning is: When you were in the Sea Organization and you were being recruited into the organization I heard testimony that people were told that they would have nice living conditions, they would make up to seven hundred dollars per week. Did these kinds of ideas go through your mind, at first? MS. PACE: I couldn't much use these living conditions. I knew that I would be in a dorm. I didn't know that there would be roaches and no air conditioner and ten people in the room. But I knew I would be in a dorm; I thought maybe with three girls. MR. CALDERBANK: Did they tell you that by policy that it would be a type of rigorous, military regimen? MS. PACE: I knew that before I joined. MR. LeCHER: Mr. Berfield, do you have any MS. PACE: Before I joined the Sea Org., yes. MR. BERFIELD: Just a few. Someone that testified earlier, I think, has brought out a point that's been uppermost in my mind, and that is, people that have come forward to this legislative hearing. What motivated you to come here? MS. PACE: I believe that people should be told the truth, especially, Scientologists. And I hope they're listening to these hearings. From personal experience, what I have gone through in the past few months, wanting to leave and thinking that I actually couldn't leave the organization is a horrible feeling. And I've been going through absolute hell these past few months. And I want Scientologists to know that they could speak up; they could give an opinion; they can have their own thoughts; they can do what they want. That's why I'm here. Including my husband I want him to he's been put on the RPF just recently. He called me last week, and he thinks it's great that he's going to be put on the RPF now. And I hate to see these things go on, because I believe that the RPF is a place where you really get brainwashed. You work day and night and you get intense auditing. That's why I'm here: just to let Scientologists know that they can speak up. MR. BERFIELD: I this is a little side issue, but I take it that you and your husband are still in love, then? MS. PACE: I love my husband. MR. BERFIELD: A couple of questions: You said that you had taught these auditing courses. Did you use books in those? MS. PACE: I have never taught a Scientology course. That was my sister, Lori. MR. BERFIELD: Have you ever read any of these just this Dianetics, have you ever read that? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. BERFIELD: Just from your own personal experience, having read it previously and if I understand your testimony that you have given up Scientology MS. PACE: Yes. MR. BERFIELD: how much truth or value would you put in this book? MS. PACE: I haven't seen any truth in the book. From applying it, from being an auditor, I have never seen someone be cured of an illness in all the experience that I have had. I wasn't a supervisor. I didn't teach the courses, but I was an auditor for about fifteen years. MR. BERFIELD: Looking back in retrospect and I realize, it's hard for you now, but if you had to define or describe Scientology, how would you describe it? MS. PACE: As a harmful cult. MR. BERFIELD: Do you in their solicitation program for these various courses, is there any deception in it? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. BERFIELD: How so? MS. PACE: I believe they promise things that don't exist in Scientology. That goes as far as auditing and their training. MR. BERFIELD: On the I believe you also testified on the children that you did not have much to do with the children over at MS. PACE: No, I didn't. MR. BERFIELD: In reading various documents that you've had there, how would you know personally whether or not they were for the sake of a better description corporate documents, something that came down from corporate headquarters or Flag or whatever you wish to call it? MS. PACE: I'm sorry, I didn't get that. Well, they have executive courses where you learn policy, and they have technical courses where you learn how to become an auditor. You read the policies, you drill them, you get checked out by your supervisor, and you apply the policy. MR. BERFIELD: Could the policy be something that Mr. Flynn wrote up or that I wrote up? How would you know that the policy is MS. PACE: Well, a Scientologist would never doubt that L. Ron Hubbard wrote it if his name was on it. Just recently, I believe, people started to suspect that possibly he wasn't writing policy. MR. BERFIELD: You mean, if I wrote up a policy and wrote "Hubbard" on it that you all would have believed it at that time? MS. PACE: Well, I couldn't answer that. It would depend on what well, policies are written in a certain way. L. Ron Hubbard has a way of writing things that's very similar. So, I guess you would know by that. MR. BERFIELD: But if it had his name on it, it was gospel? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Berfield, I might I've just I might help on this. Could you explain what an HCO is? MS. PACE: An HC what is MR. SHOEMAKER: Hubbard Coordinating Officer? MS. PACE: Hubbard Communications Office? MR. SHOEMAKER: Yes, in terms of where the documents come from that you've been referring to. I mean, it comes from there MS. PACE: Yes. MR. SHOEMAKER: I understand that. MR. BERFIELD: You mentioned, I believe, also, too, that you have audited hundreds of thousands of people. MS. PACE: Yes, thousands of people. MR. BERFIELD: Thousands. Did you at any time ever tell them that what they were doing really wasn't going to help them? MS. PACE: No. MR. BERFIELD: Did you believe that, that it was going to help them? MS. PACE: Yes, I did. MR. BERFIELD: And if I understand your testimony now, you say that, in your own mind, it would not help them? MS. PACE: No. MR. BERFIELD: Your sister you were talking about her being blown. Do you know for a fact how she returned to Clearwater? By that, I mean let me clarify that. Was she brought back under force or MS. PACE: No, she wasn't; no. MR. BERFIELD: Have you ever had any contact with anyone who had blown, personal contact? MS. PACE: No. MR. BERFIELD: Just one last question here or two: I believe you also testified that you were told that someone told you that auditing or something cou1d help you with your headaches? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. BERFIELD: And you found out that this is not correct, it did not? MS. PACE: That is not correct. MR. BERFIELD: Your again, your reason for not leaving Scientology was all psycho and not physical; is that correct? MS. PACE: I believe it would have become physical if I tried to leave. They have a practice of stopping people from blowing. But most of it was mental. I could have left; I could have walked out the door. MR. BERFIELD: In this thirteen odd years, something had been installed in you or instilled in you that if you left, you would be forcibly returned? MS. PACE: I believed that. MR. BERFIELD: Just one question and or two I asked your sister this: In the time you were in Clearwater, there in your mind there was no one in the City of Clearwater that you felt safe that you could have turned to for help? MS. PACE: When I was in Clearwater, I was very much a Scientologist, even though this was going on and I was very unhappy. And I would never go to anyone except a Scientologist. MR. BERFIELD: Could you turn to a physician or a MS. PACE: No. MR. BERFIELD: I'll leave you with this one: If you could tell the people of Clearwater and they all could hear you, what would you tell them? MS. PACE: Well, I think I mentioned it earlier how I feel about Scientology. When I was in Clearwater at Flag, I hated the city, and I dreaded coming back. And I look at it very different now. I think Scientology something should be done about scientology and I'm glad that the hearings are going on. I'm glad the people are hearing the truth of what goes on at the Fort Harrison. That is all. MR. LeCHER: Before we adjourn or not adjourn, we bring in the next witness, two quick ones: All the thousands of people you audited, if they knew that Ron's background was suspect, do you think they would have allowed themselves to be audited or spend the money? MS. PACE: I don't think so. MR. LeCHER: You mentioned you're married and you love your husband. When you were married, did you live with him or did you live in a dorm? You mentioned living in a dorm. MS. PACE: I lived in a dorm when I came to Clearwater; he wasn't with me. MR. LeCHER: Oh. But you certainly when you are married, you can live with your husband in MS. PACE: Yes, you can. MR. LeCHER: in the same room? MS. PACE: I yes. I didn't live in the Sea Org. quarters when I was with my husband. MR. LeCHER: Well, that's it. Oh, why was your is your husband in the RFP? MS. PACE: That's yeah, the RPF. MR. LeCHER: The RPF, sorry. MS. PACE: He called me last week and he MR. LeCHER: He called you? MS. PACE: Yes. It's known that we are going to get a divorce. He said he couldn't possibly live with me now that I'm not a Scientologist. And when you're in the Sea Org., you're not allowed to have sexual relations with anyone except your spouse. And he had sexual sexual relations with someone, and he gave that up at an auditing session. And that was used against him and he was put on the RPF. MR. LeCHER: You mean, the confessional told that? MS. PACE: Yes, the confessional. MR. LeCHER: I think I'd better leave that right where it is. Thank you for coming and being an excellent witness.
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