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CITY OF CLEARWATER COMMISSION HEARINGS RE: THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY |
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ROSIE PACE MR. LeCHER: All right. Let's get with Miss Pace. Miss Rosie Pace. I have to ask you the five — before I do that, I must ask you to get sworn in, please. Is the Clerk there, Mrs. Lamkin? ROSIE PACE, a witness herein, having first been duly sworn by a Clerk for the City of Clearwater, was examined and testified as follows: MR. LeCHER: Okay. Miss Pace, we're going to ask you the five basic questions, then, we'll get on to have you discuss your role. The first question: Are you appearing here today and testifying under oath voluntarily? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. LeCHER: Have you been paid by anyone for your testimony, other than the expenses for coming to Clearwater? MS. PACE: No. MR. LeCHER: Do you have a lawsuit against the Church of Scientology? MS. PACE: No. MR. LeCHER: Does the Church of Scientology have a lawsuit against you? MS. PACE: No. MR. LeCHER: Has, anyone suggested to you that you should state anything but the truth, or has anyone suggested that you change your testimony for any reason? MS. PACE: No. MR. LeCHER: Are you — just to set the stage here, are you the sister of Lori? MS. PACE: Yes, I am. MR. LeCHER: Who spoke yesterday. MS. PACE: Yes. MR. LeCHER: Miss Pace, would you like to make a statement or would you like me to start asking you questions, or would you like to do it in your own way? MS. PACE: Well, I'd like to tell you how I got into Scientology. MR. LeCHER: I'd like to hear that. MS. PACE: Okay. I've been in — first of all, I'm very, very nervous. MR. LeCHER: I know you are and you've been waiting a long time and so forth. MS. PACE: I came into Scientology seventeen years ago in 1965. I was thirteen. And I was having a lot of trouble with school and I didn't want to go. MR. LeCHER: To school? MS. PACE: Yes. So, my sister, Lori, had gotten involved in Scientology and she felt that it could help me. And her intention was that that would make me want to go to school. But when I went into the organization, they told me, well, I was right in not wanting to go to school and — MR. LeCHER: At age thirteen? MS. PACE: Yes. And that the Board of Education was suppressive, and that I would be harmed if I did go to school. And at the time, I loved it; I thought that was great. And that they would write a letter to the Board of Education that I was getting spiritual counseling so that I wouldn't be sent to a reform school or anything like that, that it was okay that I didn't go to school because of the spiritual counseling. MR. LeCHER: Did they write a letter to the Board of Education? MS. PACE: Yes, they did. MR. LeCHER: Did the Board of Education in that particular community agree that spiritual counseling was more valuable than school? MS. PACE: At the time, it was for — it was supposed to be for a brief period of time that I would be getting the counseling. Somehow, I managed not to go to school. I just wanted not — not to be sent to a reform school. And I started getting Scientology training at the age of fourteen. And I was a highly classed auditor at the age of sixteen. And that has been my life. MR. LeCHER: Your life — when did you leave the Church? MS. PACE: Just two months ago, officially. MR. LeCHER: Can you tell me something with respect — were you in Clearwater? MS. PACE: Yes, I was. MR. LeCHER: How long were you in Clearwater? MS. PACE: I was in Clearwater for seven months, from May '79 till December '79. MR. LeCHER: Can you tell me something about the activities in Clearwater? MS. PACE: Well — MR. LeCHER: From your first person point of view, what you actually saw? MS. PACE: All right. I arrived in Clearwater, and the first night I was taken to a room at the Gray Moss because there was no dorm for me. The next night I was brought to a dorm which had no light, and I had my luggage and I couldn't get in the room. There were about ten beds in the room. MR. LeCHER: How old were you at the time? MS. PACE: This is three years ago; I was twenty-seven. And there were suitcases all over the room, no light. So, I just walked down the stairs and I said, "I'd like to pay for my own room because I don't want to stay in the dorm," and that's what I did. And I was here for NED for OTs training. MR. LeCHER: NED for OTs? MS. PACE: NED for OTs. MR. LeCHER: Oh, NED for OTs. MS. PACE: Right, which was supposed to be beyond your wildest dreams and it was just going to handle everything that's wrong with you, and that I would be treated like gold when I got to Flag Land Base. And I later found out that that was an absolute lie. I started my training. It was going along fine. And Lori had come one month later. And she was having a little bit of trouble and she blew, like she said. And my other sister, Annie, was with me. We got pulled into Ethics, immediately, and they told us it was a conspiracy. And I got very physically ill. I had a high fever and swollen glands and I couldn't get out of bed. And I was ordered out of bed because there was going to be a meeting with the senior CS of the Flag Land Base. So, I got out of bed and he screamed and screamed and screamed and ordered me back on post the next morning. Also, my sister, Annie, who's not here, was sick, also. And he ordered her back on post the next morning and said he would not tolerate any illness. MR. LeCHER: Who was "he," and what was his title? MS. PACE: He was the senior case supervisor; his name was Jeff Walker. And Lori came back the next day. By this time, I was afraid for Lori because, as far as I was concerned, this man, this Jeff Walker, was insane. He was screaming and just totally psychotic. Anyway, Lori came back. And I was having severe headaches. I've had them for a long time. And they had gotten worse. And I decided to see an eye doctor because +I had some trouble with my eyes and I thought maybe that was the problem. Anyway, it ended up, I had an eye operation. That's how I got out of the Flag Land Base. Before then, I couldn't get out; I thought I couldn't get out, mentally; I couldn't leave. MR. LeCHER: What was wrong with you that they forced you out of bed? I mean, were you just emotionally drained or did you have the flu or — MS. PACE: I had a high fever and swollen glands, sore throat, and I was just very weak. I was very upset that my sister had blown because that's the worst thing you can do in Scientology. And I was afraid of what was going to happen to her when she returned. MR. LeCHER: Were you concerned then that you might infect other people? MS. PACE: I'm sorry? MR. LeCHER: Weren't you or they concerned that you might infect other people? Forgetting about your own health, if you did have a temperature, you may have a tendency to infect the whole dorm or the whole organization. MS. PACE: Well, obviously, he didn't care. MR. LeCHER: Is that standard practice, that if you feel ill you cannot go to a doctor? MS. PACE: Well, you're allowed to go to a doctor. I wasn't told to go to a doctor I was told to return to post. So, that's all I know. You are allowed to see a doctor. MR. LeCHER: Can you go alone to see a doctor or must you be escorted there by — MS. PACE: The MAA, the Master at Arms, of Flag Land Base said he'd have to come with me. MR. LeCHER: You couldn't go on your own? MS. PACE: Well, I convinced him that I was able to go on my own, that I really didn't want him to come with me. MR. SHOEMAKER: Could you give that title, again, please? MS. PACE: Master at Arms. MR. SHOEMAKER: Master at Arms. MS. PACE: That's the Ethics Officer. MR. LeCHER: If you had a physical ailment that may be rather personal in nature, would that ailment be concealed from the Master at Arms or from the organization, and would it be just between you and your doctor? MS. PACE: No. The doctor is to write a report and give it to the Medical Officer. MR. LeCHER: Were these doctors chosen at random out of the phone book or were they Scientology doctors? MS. PACE: They weren't Scientology doctors. MR. LeCHER: Can you tell me about — anything, more about the living conditions in Clearwater? MS. PACE: Well, I didn't live in a dorm. But after I had my eye operation, I couldn't stay in my regular room because there was auditing going on in there, and I spent most of my days in the dorms just sleeping on a bunk. And there were ants crawling all over you. There were — MR. LeCHER: Ants? MS. PACE: — ants all over the bed. There were about eight to ten beds in each room, no air conditioner, luggage all over the room; you could hardly walk. There were roaches all over the entire building. MR. LeCHER: What about maid service — or did you change your own linens and wash your own linens? MS. PACE: If you're — if you're a staff member, you handle your own linens, do your own laundry. If you're a public person — MR. LeCHER: You had maid service? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. LeCHER: Who — where did you find these maids? Were they from within the community, trained domestics, or were they also Scientologists that were doing — MS. PACE: They were staff members. MR. LeCHER: Staff members. MS. PACE: Of the Church of Scientology. MR. LeCHER: How do you get to be a maid? I mean, do you apply for the job or are you given that job for performing your duties — MS. PACE: Well, I think, when you first come in, you do this sort of work. MR. LeCHER: You work your way up within the organization? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. LeCHER: From a maid to a higher, position? MS. PACE: Yes. I didn't go through this process, but I — you do physical work before you're promoted. MR. LeCHER: You apparently were highly trained within the Church of Scientology. How did — how much money were you paid as a staff member? MS. PACE: Well, it varied through the years. Sometimes, nothing; sometimes, twenty dollars a week, depending on how much they made that week. MR. LeCHER: If you were started at thirteen — and you say you were in there for seventeen years? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. LeCHER: And obviously, your education must have been limited; your skills, marketing skills, must have been limited. You were paid, at most, twenty dollars a week. How did you support yourself, buy personal objects, clothes, and things? MS. PACE: Well, when I was a teenager, I lived with my sisters and I babysat for them. And Lori was married, my sister, Lori. That's how I lived then. And I worked on the outside to support myself later on. MR. LeCHER: Did you work in Clearwater? MS. PACE: No. I had a business in California when I was at Clearwater. That's how I was able to get my own room. MR. LeCHER: You and your sister seem like very industrious women in spite of all you've been through, the number of years' hell that were spent in Scientology. We talked about the — did you have — what about the Fair Game? Has it been affecting you when you left — since you left the Church, have they tried to contact you or talk you into coming back within the organization? MS. PACE: No. The only person who called me was my husband, who left me. When I told him what I had found out about Scientology, that I had just been miserable — MR. LeCHER: Is he a Scientologist? MS. PACE: He's in the Sea Org., and he's filings for divorce. And he's the only person who has called me and tried to harass me, but hasn't. MR. LeCHER: If you were not married to a high ranking member, do you think you would have been — I will erase the question. I'll yield now to Mr. Hatchett. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mrs. Garvey. MR. LeCHER: Mrs. Garvey, sorry. MRS. GARVEY: Did you ever find out in particular what your illness was? MS. PACE: No. MRS. GARVEY: When you were auditing, did you assume that the auditing information was confidential? MS. PACE: Yes. MRS. GARVEY: When you were audited, did you assume the information was confidential? MS. PACE: Yes. MRS. GARVEY: When you were auditing, were you told it was based on scientific techniques? MS. PACE: Yes. MRS. GARVEY: What were you told about the Guardian Office? MS. PACE: I was told that the Guardian's Office was there to protect Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard against the FBI, CIA, AMA, that they were attacking Scientology. That's — that's what I honestly believed all these years. MRS. GARVEY: Did you have any contact at all with anyone from the Guardian's Office or were you ever called in for any reason? MS. PACE: No. MRS. GARVEY: Does the — did you see the Medical Officer when you were having problems and did he prescribe anything or have any directions for you? MS. PACE: I saw the Medical Officer once and I told him I wanted to see a doctor, and he didn't prescribe anything. I did have to go through him. MRS. GARVEY: Okay. Why did you leave, finally? MS. PACE: Because I hated it. I wanted to die while I was there. I was hoping — and this is the truth — I was hoping that when I went to the doctor that he would tell me I had cancer. And that — that way, I could get out, because, mentally, I could not leave Flag Land Base unless I was dying. MRS. GARVEY: You mean, you were so committed towards what you spent — had been doing for seventeen years that you just couldn't say, "I no longer" — MS. PACE: Right. MRS. GARVEY: And walk out? MS. PACE: Right. MRS. GARVEY: Even though you don't feel that you were getting anything anymore or — MS. PACE: I was a nervous wreck; I was shaking, I couldn't sleep, I couldn't eat. I lost twenty pounds. I was miserable and unhappy, and I couldn't walk out the door. I thought I couldn't walk out the door. MRS. GARVEY: What — can you explain a little bit why you were so — so miserable, so unhappy? What precipitated that? MS. PACE: Yeah. I think, when Lori gave her testimony yesterday — I saw what they did to her. Lori got very physically ill and her leg swelled up. She had arthritis. And I saw her humiliated and forced to work, to do physical labor. And the same thing happened to me. And I looked around and I said, "What am I doing here? How" — I didn't see that we were freeing the planet or that anyone was getting better. But just that they had people working for seventeen dollars a week from early morning till late at night. And when you get ill, you don't — you get treated badly. Instead of going to a doctor and staying in bed, you're treated very badly. MRS. GARVEY: The feeling I have between you and your sister is that you love each other very much. MS. PACE: Yes. MRS. GARVEY: Do you think you would have believed it if it had been someone that you didn't know personally and very closely? MS. PACE: No. MR. LeCHER: Mr. Hatchett, do you want — MR. HATCHETT: Fine. Miss Pace, at the Clearwater Flag operation that's here in Clearwater, did you — or were you aware of an epidemic-type of unhealthy situations that existed, hepatitis or anything like that while you were here in the Clearwater Flag office? MS. PACE: No. MR. HATCHETT: Were you ever confined for misbehavior or not meeting quotas or anything like that? MS. PACE: After Lori had left, blew, we were separated and put into our room, and we had a guard by the door and we weren't allowed to leave. She happened to be a friend, and we convinced her to leave, that we wouldn't leave the Flag Land Base. MR. HATCHETT: Thank you. Did you have any knowledge of how money was collected at the Flag operation here in Clearwater? MS. PACE: No. MR. HATCHETT: Did you sign any contracts or waivers that you could not hold the Church of Scientology responsible in any way for any of their acts? MS. PACE: I — MR. HATCHETT: When you first came in, did you sign waivers and you may not have been aware of what you were signing? MS. PACE: Yes. I have signed waivers. MR. HATCHETT: You have signed waivers? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. HATCHETT: All right. Were you aware of the RPF-type of confinement? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. HATCHETT: Did you actually have firsthand experience there? MS. PACE: I have never been on the RPF, but I've seen people on the RPF. MR. HATCHETT: What may have been your impression of their physical condition going in or coming out? MS. PACE: I saw people with sores all over their body. On the RPF, you're not allowed to walk ever, you have to run constantly. And they just look exhausted and physically ill. That's my opinion. MR. HATCHETT: Would you consider that the conduct of the Church of Scientology, in order to control you and physically control you and, also, to have the proper mind set to serve them for a billion years — have you heard that term? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. HATCHETT: Would you call that repressive in any way? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. HATCHETT: Yet, they said the world, generally, were repressive, right? MS. PACE: Uh-huh. MR. HATCHETT: And they used tactics far beyond that to achieve their goals; would you say that? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. HATCHETT: Against anyone? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. HATCHETT: Thank you. MR. LeCHER: Mr. Shoemaker. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mrs. Pace, I hope you understand — I know that you're nervous, and I can't blame you, for being here. I've been doing this for a number of years and I still get nervous. MS. PACE: Okay. MR. SHOEMAKER: But please be relatively sure that we all are very interested in what you have to say, and the questions we ask — we certainly don't mean to be personally embarrassing, but we are attempting to try to find out certain facts relating to this. MS. PACE: Okay. MR. SHOEMAKER: I'm not going to embarrass you; I just wanted to — MS. PACE: All right. MR. SHOEMAKER: Are you familiar with the Fair Game Doctrine? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. SHOEMAKER: What does that mean to you? MS. PACE: That means that if a person goes against the Church, they are fair game and anything you do to them is all right. MR. SHOEMAKER: Was that common knowledge while you were a Scientologist? MS. PACE: In the early days it was and, now, I believe, it's supposedly cancelled. But — possibly, they cancelled the policy, but I believe that it still goes on. MR. SHOEMAKER: At the time that you were still in the Church — MS. PACE: Yes. MR. SHOEMAKER: — did you believe that there was such a thing as the Fair Game Doctrine or did you think about it? MS. PACE: I did believe it. MR. SHOEMAKER: You did? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. SHOEMAKER: What is the worst thing that can happen to a Scientologist? MS. PACE: I don't understand. MR. SHOEMAKER: In terms of devoting your life, which, obviously, you did — MS. PACE: Yes. MR. SHOEMAKER: — for a period of sixteen or seventeen years — and I'm walking on sensitive ground with the beliefs — what is the worst thing that somebody could say could happen to you as a Scientologist, the worst thing that could happen to you? MS. PACE: Do you mean, after you leave the Church or while you're a Scientologist? MR. SHOEMAKER: Or even leaving the Church — MS. PACE: I think the worst part of the Church of Scientology is the feeling that you can't leave. Through the processing, which I considered damaging sometimes, I feel it's a — I feel that you can get brainwashed to a point where you feel you can't leave, which is the worst part: the betrayal that you're leaving the group when they're supposedly freeing the planet. And this is drummed into you. And even now, I still have the effects of Scientology. I'm not over it yet. MR. SHOEMAKER: Do you feel that you would have left if it hadn't been for the incident that occurred to your sister? MS. PACE: Yes, eventually, I would have. MR. SHOEMAKER: Eventually, you would have? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. SHOEMAKER: Is your other sister still in Scientology? MS. PACE: No, she's not. MR. SHOEMAKER: She is not. There was a — Lori mentioned yesterday a comment about folder pages, that is; young people that carry folders, auditing folders, as I understand. Could you go into that a little bit and tell us what the age of these individuals are and what they do and, to your knowledge, whether they have any kind of an educational process or whatever? MS. PACE: Well, I think the ages are — from what I've seen — MR. SHOEMAKER: Right. MS. PACE: — are from about eight years old, maybe, to thirteen, twelve or thirteen. And what they do is carry folders back and forth to the Hubbard Guidance Center, from session to session and, then, back to the Hubbard Guidance Center. That's all — that's all I really know about it. MR. SHOEMAKER: What would be their normal hours of work that you would guess? MS. PACE: I wouldn't know. MR. SHOEMAKER: You wouldn't know? MS. PACE: No. I've never seen them go to school. MR. SHOEMAKER: You have not? MS. PACE: No, I haven't. MR. SHOEMAKER: Have you ever been in the nursery or any of the classrooms or anywhere they may be taught? MS. PACE: No. MR. SHOEMAKER: Were you aware of the RPF in terms of where they were located in the Church of Scientology, physically? MS. PACE: I didn't know where they slept. MR. SHOEMAKER: What were your feelings, your internal beliefs, of Mr. Hubbard, and how did that relate to when you initially became a Scientologist or caused you to stay in there? MS. PACE: Well, when I initially became a Scientologist, I wasn't interested in L. Ron Hubbard. As I said, I was thirteen. MR. SHOEMAKER: Right. MS. PACE: Later on, I thought L. Ron Hubbard was the greatest man in the world for developing this technology. Once I became an auditor and I had all my training, I thought he was the greatest man in the world. I would never say anything against him. MR. SHOEMAKER: And was much of this based upon his background as portrayed by the Church? MS. PACE: Yes, his background and what I thought he had done. MR. SHOEMAKER: Right. And that also relates back to the question of being a nuclear physicist — MS. PACE: Yes. MR. SHOEMAKER: — and so forth? The books that have — that you have read through the time that you've been in Scientology — I'm sure you haven't had time to reread them at this point but — do you think you'd have a different perspective on what those books say now that you — MS. PACE: Yes, I do. MR. SHOEMAKER: — no longer — MS. PACE: Yes. MR. SHOEMAKER: From what I understand, being an auditor is a very prestigious type of a position within the Church. MS. PACE: Yes. MR. SHOEMAKER: Why did you elect to become an auditor or was this something that was suggested to you or — how did that come about? MS. PACE: I wanted to help people, and this is how I would do it by getting the training and, then, counseling people. MR. SHOEMAKER: So, this was — this was a major attraction for you then within the Church itself? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. SHOEMAKER: At the time you were doing the auditing — I know Mrs. Garvey mentioned this before but — what would you guess that you have audited, thousands of people? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. SHOEMAKER: And during this period of time, certainly, you received a great deal of confidential types of information, from the various people. How would you relate your role as an auditor to these individuals in terms of what they were saying, like — a confession or — MS. PACE: Yes. MR. SHOEMAKER: Similar to a confession? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. SHOEMAKER: During the time that you did this auditing, were there any promises that were held out to the individuals that you were auditing that you were aware of or that was even made by the Church or — what was supposed to be the benefit of the auditing to the individual? MS. PACE: Well, basically, the person was asked what they wanted to handle in Scientology before they got counseling. MR. SHOEMAKER: And that might be like what, what types of things that they might wish to handle? MS. PACE: Well, maybe, they wanted to communicate better, or they had a physical illness — MR. SHOEMAKER: It could be a physical illness or a mental illness or something like that? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. SHOEMAKER: And then, based upon that, what was the auditing to accomplish? MS. PACE: Whatever the person had said they wanted handled, the auditing would attempt to handle that. MR. SHOEMAKER: So, the auditing was supposed to help that particular problem, whatever it might be? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. SHOEMAKER: It might be a physical illness or a mental illness? MS. PACE: Yes. I don't believe they ever promised to handle physical illness. MR. SHOEMAKER: Okay. MS. PACE: But in — okay. Well, they do. MR. SHOEMAKER: Thank you. MR. LeCHER: Miss Pace, you have — you're thirty years old, correct? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. LeCHER: And you've been in Scientology over half your life. MS. PACE: Yes. MR. LeCHER: How much education have you had? MS. PACE: Very little. MR. LeCHER: What is the last grade you completed in school? MS. PACE: I went into the ninth grade just, as I say, not to be sent to reform school. But I've never completed it. I didn't go to the eighth grade. I went for a while in the seventh grade. Most of my training was just in Scientology. MR. LeCHER: Why do you think that Scientologists want to keep a young woman like you from getting an education? I would — I will not answer the question for you. Why would you think they would want to keep you relatively uneducated? MS. PACE: Well, the reason I was given was because the educational system was suppressive. I believe it's because they wanted to use me as a staff member and an auditor. MR. LeCHER: I have something I'd like to produce as evidence. We have — it's Ethics Order No. — well, I'll read it to you. It's from the Sea Organization and it was found in the public library. It's Ethics Order No. 56-IMO. As I read it, maybe you can interpret it for me. I don't understand it. It's November 29th, 1981. There's a word I'm not sure how to — new enturbulation order. MS. PACE: Oh, non-enturbulation order. MR. LeCHER: Non-enturbulation order. I'll mention the man's name, Jim Logan, Cram Off WMSP. "There has been several instances of J enturbulating senior executives of the IMO over the past three weeks," parentheses, "(evidence with HCO)," close parentheses. "Lie has been attacking upstarts — upstats, both verbally and in writing off line chits containing the false and alarming data about our senior execs to other senior execs. Any instance of enturbulation from Jim will be dealt with by a Suppressive Person Order being issued forthwith." And it's signed, "P03 Garrett Knutsom," K-n-u-t-s-o-m, "IMRNSB, authorized by AVC CW for the Board of Directors for the Church of Scientology international." What's all this about, do you know? Can you interpret this for me? This will be an exhibit. MS. PACE: I don't know what the initials stand for. (A copy of a Non-Enturbulation Order, dated November 29, 1981, was marked as Exhibit No. 33, as of this date.) MRS. GARVEY: Maybe Mr. Walters knows. MR. LeCHER: What is enturbulation? MS. PACE: Enturbulating, that means causing upset, something to that effect. Causing things to not be run smoothly, enturbulation. Apparently, this guy had been enturbulating his executive. It says he was attacking upstats. That mean when a person has up statistics; he was attacking that somehow, verbally. He was writing false and alarming data about senior executives to other senior executives. And he was to be dealt with with a Suppressive Person Order. MR. CALDERBANK: What is — MR. LeCHER: What is a Suppressive Person Order? MS. PACE: Well, that's an order that comes out that declares you a Suppressive Person and no other Scientologist can communicate with you. MR. SHOEMAKER: Could that person, then, be put in the RPF and — MS. PACE: Yes, yes. You're still a Scientologist when you're put on the RPF. When you're declared suppressive — MR. SHOEMAKER: You're no longer a Scientologist or — MS. PACE: You can work through the conditions and get back up to being a Scientologist. Yes. MR. SHOEMAKER: And that was still in effect at the time you were a scientologist? MS. PACE: Yes. Oh, I don't know until two months ago. MR. SHOEMAKER: But the last time you were here in Clearwater — MS. PACE: Yes. MR. SHOEMAKER: — which was — when did you say? MS. PACE: '79. MR. LeCHER: Poor Mr. Logan. I hate to do it to him, but I had to enter that into evidence.
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