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CITY OF CLEARWATER COMMISSION HEARINGS RE: THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY |
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LORI TAVERNA MR. FLYNN: The next witness is Lori Taverna. MR. LeCHER: Lori -- Miss Taverna; is that correct? MS. TAVERNA: That's right. MR. LeCHER: Will you please be sworn in by our City Clerk, Mrs. Williams? LORI TAVERNA, a witness herein, having first been duly sworn by a Clerk for the City of Clearwater, was examined and testified as follows: MR. LeCHER: Thank you. Your name is Lori, L-o-r-i T-a-v-e-r-n-a. I will ask you the same five basic questions that we have asked every other witness. The first one is: Are you appearing here today and testifying under oath voluntarily? MS. TAVERNA: Yes, I am. MR. LeCHER: Number two: Have you been paid by anyone for your testimony, other than for the expense of coming to Clearwater? MS. TAVERNA: No, I haven't. MR. LeCHER: Number three: Do you have a lawsuit against the Church of Scientology? MS. TAVERNA: No, I don't. MR. LeCHER: Number four: Does the Church of Scientology have a lawsuit against you? MS. TAVERNA: No. MR. LeCHER: Number five: Has anyone suggested to you that you should state anything but the truth or has anyone suggested that you change your testimony for any reason? MS. TAVERNA: No. MR. LeCHER: Thank you. Would you like to make a statement, or would you how would you like to proceed? MS. TAVERNA: Well -- MR. LeCHER: Start with your background; we'd like to hear that, first. MS. TAVERNA: Okay. It's a little hard for me to summarize my years in Scientology, but I'll try to get it together. I'm very nervous right now. MR. LeCHER: Well, don't be. MS. TAVERNA: Okay. MR. LeCHER: We're nice people. MRS. GARVEY: Bring the mike up. MR. LeCHER: Bring the mike up so that the people can hear you in the back ofthe room and we can hear you up here, and it will all be audible. MS. TAVERNA: Okay. Basically, I've been in Scientology for seventeen years. I came in sometime in June 1965. 1 attended a free lecture, and in that lecture I was told about the active mind, how it affects people, and there's a state known as clear where you can be rid of this mind and rid yourself of all psychosomatic illness, all irrational behavior, be totally free, IQ would be raised, and so forth. It sounded very good to me. It sounded like something I was looking for. Part of the aims of Scientology were a world without crime, without -- I forgot already without war, crime, insanity. And I had two small children, and I just thought it was something to make a better world. And I decided to find out more about it. After -- then, in the next few years, I took courses; I became an auditor, which is a counselor; I became trained as a supervisor to train other auditors. I read about Ron Hubbard, about his past, that he was blind and crippled in the war, that he was restored to health by his own techniques from his research, that I became very dedicated to Ron Hubbard. I felt that he was I guess in a way, supernatural or the greatest person I'd ever heard of. I'm just going to look at my notes. MR. LeCHER: Certainly. You can follow your outline or your notes, if you prefer. MS. TAVERNA: Well, I just took some notes on background. The rest I'll just follow from my outline MR. LeCHER: Certainly. MS. TAVERNA: -- here. Oh, then, I worked on staff for many years after that as an auditor and training supervisor. I got paid about -- between $3.00 and $10.00 a week for this. And money wasn't important to me, because I felt the purpose was a good purpose. I also felt a responsibility. Like, in Scientology if you're not contributing, you feel guilty. And I wanted to help, so, most of the years, I had worked as a staff member. I also felt that -- it's sort of said in a lot of the writings of Scientology that it is the only thing that can save this planet from destruction. There's a lot of talk against the medical profession, mental health, and enemies of Scientology: the government, the CIA. I had started to feel that it was us against them. And then I stopped associating with people not in Scientology because I felt they didn't understand. They wouldn't -- I couldn't communicate with them. So, basically, it became a larger part of my life. Oh, and Ron Hubbard was worshipped by many people; he was looked at as a god. I never actually worshipped him but anything he said I believed to be true. After so many years, it made sense to me. Whatever he said, any orders he gave were followed without any question. I got divorced from my husband in about 1971 1 would say, mainly, because he wasn't a Scientologist. I felt he didn't want to help, he didn't want to contribute and so forth, and a lot of distance developed between us because of this. I traveled to England, to Spain, Los Angeles, and did all these upper levels as a highly-trained auditor. I'll give specifics of what I did up until now, briefly. MR. LeCHER: Sure. MS. TAVERNA: In 1971, 1 went to the Professional Supervisors' School in Los Angeles, and I did the course in two weeks. And then, I saw a telex from Ron Hubbard which said all people doing training had to do a training drill called TR 0, which is a communication drill where you sit and confront another person. You don't speak, you don't move; you don't do anything like that. Now, he added in his telex that you're not allowed to blink. So, I questioned the telex that was shown to me, then, I was word cleared, which means in Scientology there's a rule that if you disagree with any of the technology, you have to have a misunderstood word. So, I was word cleared, and they said, "No, Ron Hubbard said blinkless." I felt it was very natural to blink and it wasn't a distraction to being there. So, we had to -- oh, you had to do it for two hours. You had to sit in a chair, confront another person, and not blink your eyes for a two-hour period. It was timed on a clock. So, I stayed there for three months, and I did this drill seven days a week, from eight in the morning till eleven at night. Students accumulated there for many months because no one was passing this. Duress was placed on the students.. There was a Commanding Officer who walked around with a nightstick and he would bang it on the table and say, "You're going to pass today." A lot of students went psychotic. Some students fainted during this. Many students had no more white left in their eyes; it almost looked like they were bleeding. I realized at this point -- this is back in 1971 that people were insane there. I tried to talk to the Ethics Officer, talked to people and say, "Something is wrong here." I was labeled a troublesome student; I was put in a separate room. They said to "Take Lori Taverna out of the room, we'll get some passes." So, they started passing people who weren't doing this. They passed people with tears running down their eyes. I said, "You either do it or you don't do it." But after three months, Ron Hubbard came out with a bulletin, which was called "TR Breakthrough." He saw, I imagine, that no one was passing, and he said, "We no longer have time requirements on TR 0. You do it until you achieve the end result." So, at that point, everyone went home. Something else happened during this time in '71. I was approached by Bruce Raymond, who was a member of the Guardian's Office. He asked me if I would -- he said I was chosen to be a secret agent. He said he had a dossier on me; he went to rattle off my whole life history. He said I was chosen because I had an excellent Ethics record, that I was well respected and knew I was a good person. He was in a special division of the Guardian's Office to protect Ron Hubbard's life. I was very confused. I was also frightened because I didn't know who he was exactly or who I was dealing with. But I thought if this was the real purpose -- you know, I loved Ron Hubbard very much -- and I said if I could do something to help him I will. He gave me a code name, and I was to use a post office box on my return to New York and we would communicate through this post office box. He said if I ever divulged this that he would -- I would be dealt with severely. And he said he would see that I was declared what they call Type 3 PTS, which means that you're psychotic and that they would see that I would be committed, and he would deny ever speaking to me. So, that's the only thing in Scientology that ever really frightened me. I went back to New York. I did communicate one or two times through this post office box. I was sent documents, some kind of training manual on how to do espionage, how to be an undercover agent. I studied it, sent it back. I passed the course. And I got my first assignment, which I looked at and I felt was so absurd that I just didn't want to be a part of it. It said something -- I don't remember exactly something to the effect that I was to go to different areas of Manhattan and see if I spot anyone wearing black clothes. And it was just so absurd to me, I said, you know, I just couldn't bring myself to do this. And I was to see if they were wearing partly black clothes or totally black clothes. So, I just ripped up the orders. And then, I was frightened that something was going to happen to me because I wasn't cooperating. So, I just put all the things into my bathtub and burned all the things. I never communicated to them again. But I was left with the feeling that I would be approached again. But nothing happened with it. I didn't see Bruce Raymond again till 1972 or 1973. A very good friend of mine told me that he was selected to do a Guardian's Office project and he was meeting someone at my apartment, and it turned out to be Bruce Raymond. And when I opened the door, I almost fainted because I had this earlier fear, and now he was in my house. He came with a girl named Kathy Savas. I had to leave the room because the Guardian's office was very secretive. He did this project. He told me when he was doing it. Then, after he did it -- I'm sure he was bonded and everything, but we were very close -- he told me what he did. He said, "I had to go into a building in Manhattan mid-town and I had to get someone's fingerprints on a blank piece of paper or an envelope." He said it was a woman's fingerprints, someone who wrote a book against Scientology. And he said, "I don't know why I had to do this." He said, "But it must have been something very important because I was treated like a hero." He said they were all making a very big fuss over this, and he was awarded auditing as a reward for doing this project. That's all I know about that. But if I just -- it came back to my memory when I remembered about Paulette Cooper. I assume it might have been Paulette Cooper, because I think something was done like that. And I felt very spooked and hurt that this friend of mine did it because he's now dead -- he died in 1975 -- but he was part of something very illegal and corrupt and he was never told what he was doing. And he was never part of the Guardian's Office. I've been in so many years that I probably could. talk a lot, so I'm going to try to summarize. So, I was kind of upset because I have three children and I'm divorced, so I never could make enough money to support my children properly. So, I would leave staff for a little while, get my business going, be successful. And just as I was doing really well, there was an event in New York, and there was a project called Operation Z. This was a program to train people to disseminate Scientology on a large scale to thousands of people at a time. And it was supposed to be public lecturing to beginning new people to explain what it is. We were told that you didn't have to have a contract to an organization or be part of the organization, because I was unhappy as a staff member and I didn't want to do that. He said the training would take two weeks, you would go to Clearwater when you returned, you'll be paid approximately $700.00 a week. He said that they already had Madison Square Garden booked and John Travolta was going to be there giving the seminars.. This made me very happy, because I felt that Scientology could be delivered properly and to reach people, because at this time I felt it was the greatest thing in the world. Even though there were outnesses all these years, it's hard to describe why I stayed in, but I felt that people in it were not duplicating the technology properly. I said, "Well, this is something good." I signed up immediately; I dropped everything. I paid my rent a month in advance, I had my children taken care of, and I was on the plane. I came to Clearwater in 1978, it was June. When I got here, I found out it was not exactly as the fellow had said. Things weren't organized; it wasn't all ready to go. They had people here who were in Scientology two weeks, they weren't trained. They wouldn't be able to deliver this to the public. After a couple of weeks, I saw the project was going nowhere, and I took over as the Ops Z Trainer. I fled, and I was trying to get this project off the ground. Anyway, instead of two weeks, I ended up staying here three months in Clearwater. I had accumulated a couple of thousand dollars in debts at home because my business collapsed. I had someone running it for me, but it didn't work out. My children had to go back to school in September. And I didn't want to stay anymore because nothing was true of what was told to me. Also, when I got here, I was very, very shocked to see Fort Harrison. The only thing I'd ever seen was a brochure showing pools and cabanas. And Flag is promoted to Scientologists as the greatest place on the planet, the safest place. It's something like going to heaven; everyone wants to come here. I was brought to the room when I first arrived it was in the evening, and I was shown to a room at Fort Harrison. And I went to open the door and I couldn't open the door. And I looked in. And the girl who brought me there who had recruited me for this said the light was broke and we couldn't put the light on. And I kind of squeezed in the door. There was luggage all over the floor. There was literally no room to walk on the floor. I said, "You have to be kidding." I said, you know, "This is my room." She said, "Well, I'm very embarrassed. We'll see if we can do something better tomorrow." I said, "I don't feel that I could sleep in here." But there was no other place. So, I climbed over things. I couldn't open my suitcase, I just piled it on something else. There were ten beds in the room, four bunks on each side and, then, two bunks against another wall. The room was very small, I don't know, twenty feet -- a small room. There was no walking space. The fourth bunk was about this high from the ceiling so that -- and that's where I had climbed up to; there was no ladder. I stayed there that night. And the next day they gave me another room which had, I think, eight beds. But this room was a little bit more orderly because the people in it decided amongst themselves that they would take responsibility and keep it clean. So, I stayed there. For the rest of my stay, I stayed in that room. Anyway, I left there. I went home. And I had to leave my apartment because I didn't have any money at this time and live with somebody until I started working again. And soon after that, I got back in shape and got another apartment. I didn't have anything to do with Scientology after that actively as a
staff member, but I was still a Scientologist. When I came in, I expected to achieve states which I actually didn't during the time before this, and I -- my ration -- I rationalized this by saying, "Well, I came in, I consider, fairly capable to start with." And I thought the next level would come out for me, because Ron Hubbard always said, "I'm working on upper levels." It only went up to eight, but he said that he had eighteen levels above that, but they can't be released yet. So, I said, "Well, I think other people need this, but I'm -- my levels will come later." So, I thought NOTS, this is it. This is the one that he originally said. I think I was too far away from this before. Claims were made at this meeting that miracles occurred regularly in sessions, that -- it sounds foolish now. But someone said that a person lost thirty pounds in one session. This is a person who weighed about four hundred pounds, you know, said he lost thirty pounds in one auditing session. They said it was so good that people would open the material and they were so blown out -- as Scientologists say -- that they could only take five minutes of this auditing at a time because it was too much to handle and so good. And people were so elated at this meeting that they said, "It's finally here, the thing we've been waiting for all these years." I decided that this would be my time, after all -- sixteen years or whatever it was, to join the Sea Organization. I decided I would join the Sea Org., and I would make this for the rest of my life I would dedicate to being a NOTS auditor. My two sisters also decided to join the Sea Org. I went to Los Angeles, signed the papers. My daughter came with me; she was ten at the time. She joined, also. She stayed in Los Angeles and I came here to Clearwater for training. The first two weeks of my training were fine. The room situation -- actually, I didn't stay in the rooms at the Fort Harrison. My sisters and myself, we got a room at the Gray Moss Inn, which is across the street. We paid for our own room because we didn't want to live in the dorm. I audited -- this NOTS material was a big breakthrough. I saw the materials and, in fact, it isn't a breakthrough. It's a continuation of 0 -- Section OT 3. It's actually almost the same exact material, which I didn't realize at the time. It's hard to describe. But when you first see it, it looks different. And there's a relief or seeing -- I realized that the big blow out or this thing that people get is relief, to say, "There is more hope." The explanation of -- well, I audited many people on this NED for OTs, and they had been OT for ten years, some of them. And the relief was "This is why I was crazy all these years because 3 was never complete. That's why I've been insane all these years." They came in desperation. Some of the preclears, or people on auditing, said, "If this doesn't work, I don't want to live anymore." They said, "I'm tired of holding up this image of being an OT in Scientology, having illness, having irrational feelings." They came more that "This is the last hope." I didn't see any miracles when I was auditing here. The people I audited were, as I said, in desperation, wanting it to work. I felt that people who were getting wins -- it was almost like the Emperor's New Clothes, like, if you didn't get - everyone was saying how wonderful it was. If you didn't say it, there was something wrong with you. Because it says in the technology of OT 3 that if you don't have these body thetans -- I don't know if you've discussed OT 3 -- but if you don't have this type of thing, there's something wrong with you and you're really in bad shape. So, people tend to say, "Oh, yes, I see them, too." Let me stop; I just want to see -- oh, okay. So, I was auditing people for a few weeks, and I felt complete on course. I said, "Well, whatever people are going to get from this, maybe when they finish it, something will happen or miracles will come." I audited successfully on what it was, and I felt ready to go back to Los Angeles. The course took me two weeks. And I looked on the checksheet, which was with the course material, and it said, "Length of course: two weeks." And I told the Director of Processing who arranged the auditing sessions "I'm ready to go home." She said, "Oh, no, this takes months." I said, "Well, it says on the checksheet two weeks. That's from Ron Hubbard." She said, "Nobody finishes in two weeks." I said, "Well, I've done all the requirements. So that is actually the start of the nightmare at Clearwater. I tried to go home for weeks and weeks. I started to go to this place called Cramming. Cramming is the department in Scientology where you go if you make an error in your auditing. And they supposedly correct you on this. So, my first -- the start of the downfall was my first visit to Cramming. I went in at ten o'clock. I was screamed at, I was told I had misunderstood. The Cramming Officer cursed; he pounded on the table, screamed and screamed at me. And I looked for the -- I said, "If I have a misunderstood, I'm very willing to find it, but I don't know where it is." He said, "Shut up and sit down and find your misunderstood word." I was getting very upset at this time, and I ended up staying there till twelve-thirty at night. And at the end of the evening, it turned out that I didn't have a misunderstood. And he said, "Well, you came to Cramming for this." And I said, "No, I didn't." He hadn't even read the folder. He was grilling me on this thing that didn't even happen. And as I walked out, he said, "Don't worry, Lori, we'll make a good auditor out of you someday." He was a very nasty, upsetting person. I was sick through the night; I was throwing up. The next day I just felt I couldn't go in; I was very upset about this because I had been doing so well and wanted to go home. From there I went to Ethics. I said, "Okay, I'll try again." I went back and said, "I'll audit more." For the next few months, anything I did that didn't work, they came up with another. requirement. We had meetings in the Director of Processing Office every morning; it was called muster. And everyone had to say how many hours they did the day before. There was high, high pressure on producing hours. If you didn't produce five hours of auditing on a person, you were put in a condition, you were sent to Ethics, and you were not given any liberty. Liberty is the time off to see your children or to wash your clothes. The auditors became frantic at Flag to get these hours. I overheard several conversations. One in particular, where one of the auditors cursed, and she said, "These blankety-blank people with these ten-minute sessions, I'm sick of them getting wins." She said, "I need my hours." And I looked at her and I said, "Well, that's what we're here for to give people wins; they're supposed to feel better." She said, "But I need my hours." Because if she didn't get the five hours, she couldn't see her baby, because you only got off a few hours a week on Saturday. But if you didn't do your quota, you couldn't see your children. So, I said, "Well, why don't we have meetings and discuss how many people we're doing?" Let's say, like, if you said, "They did better today," it was -- no one wanted to hear this. It was only announced how much money we made the graph was put there. There was a big announcement that we were -- at that particular week we had done a million dollars in income. 'That occurred several weeks. We were making a million dollars a week at that time. MR. LeCHER: In Clearwater? MS. TAVERNA: Right here at Fort Harrison in Clearwater. We had a graph of money in, and it would be -- they would show us, and they would say daily, "Ron Hubbard is not happy with the statistics. The hours are down." When the stats were down -- they called them stats for statistics -- when the stats were down at the Fort Harrison, the highest staff -- they were put on rice and beans. They would have this for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. They were not allowed to eat any other food. When we went to the galley, we would have regular food, but the staff would have rice and beans. And this would stay until the stats went up again. I started to feel very upset here because I said, "I came here to help people." I thought this was finally, after fifteen years of Scientology, this was going to be the process or the thing that would really do it for people. I felt that I was in, like an insane asylum. People didn't care about anyone. If you had money and you were a public person, you were given the royal treatment. But behind the scenes, the auditors, the Commanding officer would make a mockery of public people who brought the money there. They would say things like, "Look at them sitting out there in the sun," you know, very derogatory remarks about the people who were coming there, because they were called dilettantes. Because they weren't in the Sea Org., they weren't dedicated. They were just coming here to receive auditing. I said, "But these people are paying for the service. These people have worked hard for their money. They have a right to sit here by the pool because they're paying for their services." But the attitude in the Sea Org is: If you are not in the Sea Org., you are not contributing. You're a dilettante. You just want to take care of yourself. You don't care about mankind. I started to get very, very physically ill at this time. I missed my children. I didn't feel that I was helping anyone. I have never seen a miracle with auditing all the years I've been in. I've seen people get better through reading the technology, through applying practical things in a philosophy. I have never recommended auditing to people; I've always said, "Get trained, that'll help you." I never saw the actual purpose for auditing. I thought you could realize the things by reading it and learning more about life. MR. LeCHER: What term? Get what, trained? MS. TAVERNA: Excuse me. MR. LeCHER: What term did you use? Get what? MS. TAVERNA: Get trained. In other words, take courses MR. LeCHER: Oh. MR. LeCHER: I understand. MS. TAVERNA: I felt it was more advantageous to be trained and learn the technology and use it on yourself. Many Scientologists have to run to their auditor because their case is restimulated and things like this. I didn't feel that was helping people; it was making them more dependent on this auditing, which is very, very expensive. People spend hundreds of thousands of dollars. Individuals have spent up to two and three hundred thousand dollars on this NOTS auditing. I felt I was betraying these people; I didn't want to audit NOTS anymore. I didn't want to be there. I said I wanted to route out of the Sea Org., I wanted to go home. The Ethics Officer -- his name was Richard Kennedy -- he said to me, "We can't let you leave here." I said, "Why?" He said, "Because you're too capable." He said, "You have no Ethics record, you're very well respected, you've trained thousands of people, you're loved very much in Scientology, you're auditing is perfect, you're getting good results. If we let you leave here, people might think there's something wrong with Flag." I realized at that point that it wasn't going to be easy for me to get out. From then on, I considered I felt that I was a prisoner. No one told me I was a prisoner, but I knew that I wouldn't just walk out the door. In Scientology, you don't just leave. It's embedded over the years that once you're a Scientologist, there's nowhere to go; you just don't leave. So, I was getting sicker and sicker. I couldn't sleep at night; I was up most of the night. I couldn't eat. I developed -- I got a very bad arthritis attack. My joints became very swollen; my knee got black and blue and swollen. I couldn't walk. One time, I couldn't get out of bed for a week, and they said someone was going to come to give me a session. The person never came. I finally got out of bed and I walked a few blocks over to where the bank building is; I don't the name of that street. It took me about twenty-five minutes to walk there because my leg was so swollen. When I got there, Richard Kennedy humiliated me. I'm very sensitive about this; I'm trying not to get emotional. He said that -- he called me a cripple. And he said, "Look who's here," you know, "Lori Taverna." He said, "Boy, if you didn't get here soon, we were going to send an ambulance over with a wheelchair to take the cripple here." So, again, I said, "I would like to go home." At this point, I said, "It's not -- it's not the Sea Org. It's not you, it's me. I'm not equipped for the Sea Org." My case -- I would say anything at this point to go home. I felt that I was starting to -- I felt as if I was going insane. I had no touch with the -- no contact with the outside world. We were not allowed to talk about Flag to anyone, phone calls. We were instructed not to mention anything about the Flag Land Base to anyone outside of Flag. MR. LeCHER: Amazing. I'm just talking to myself. it's amazing what you're saying. MS. TAVERNA: Yeah. So, at this point, I cried a lot, I was sick a lot, and I went back and forth to training. I'd try again. At times I'd get very upset and say, "Well, no matter how bad it is, I have to stay here because I can't just leave because I'll be betraying Ron Hubbard." I felt that Ron had done so much for mankind -- at this time I felt this way -- that "Look what he's gone through. I know these people here are insane, but Ron isn't here. And if he only knew what was going on, he would help." I wrote him long letters. I don't know if he got them or not. One time it got particularly bad. When I went back, and even though I was sick, I tried to do it again. And they said, "Well, we want a tape recording of your session," which was a requirement to check your TRs, which was your communication. I did the tape. It was passed by my supervisor on the first tape. It went to the case supervisor, which was Jeff Walker. He brought up a technicality which had nothing to do with the TRs. There was always another technicality why I couldn't go home. And I realized that no matter what I did, they would never say I graduated. They didn't know what to do with me at this point. So, I was disintegrating physically and mentally, and I couldn't -- I was no longer able to audit people. So, one day I was at the Gray Moss Inn -- and I hadn't slept for about three nights. I slept in the same clothes -- or I was wearing the same clothes. I didn't know where I was. Day and night appeared the same to me. And I just -- my sisters, also. My sisters were also living with me at the Gray Moss. They had gone in to do their auditing or whatever they were doing. And I just walked out of the Gray Moss, and I walked down Fort Harrison Avenue and I got in a cab and I went to the airport. And I had an American Express card, and I flew to New York. I -- what they call in Scientology, blow. I just couldn't bear it. I felt that if I didn't leave at that point, I would physically die; I couldn't live anymore. And I don't remember going home; I was in a daze. I know I hid at the airport; I was in fear of my life. I wasn't sure what people were capable of, but I had heard a lot of stories about things that were done to people. And we have a policy in Scientology of handling a blown student, that you are to physically restrain them. So, I just got to the airport and I got on the plane. I think I just hid -- I found a corner and just sat there for three or four hours. It was a long time because I didn't know when the flights were or -- I wanted to get away from them. I got on the plane. And I had called from a telephone booth a friend of mine in New York, and I just said, "Be at the airport." I cried all the way home on the plane; I couldn't see, my eyes were swollen. I was, I guess, in a delirious state. When I got off the plane, through a blur, I saw uniforms, which was the Sea Org. uniform. Obviously, they had telexed, which they do, "Lori Taverna blew Flag," and they were waiting for me in New York. I was too weak to walk, and my friend came over and held me up. I felt that I was going to faint, and I said to him, "Tell them to go away." And my friend aided me by keeping these people away from me. They were part of the New York branch of the Sea Organization; they liaisoned with Clearwater, with Flag here. So, he successfully told them -- kept them away from me, and he took me home. I was too weak to speak to him or tell him what happened. I just rested without talking. And I slept. And then, the next morning, the whole thing -- I realized what I did. I said, "I left Flag." It was, like, terrifying to me that I did this. It was such a crime; it was such a terrible, harmful thing that I had done. And I said, "I have to go back." I think of it now -- I know it must sound insane, but I felt that I still can't -- I said, "I can't do this to Ron Hubbard." To know that a NOTS auditor blew Flag was the highest crime and the biggest betrayal that I could ever, ever do. So, I got on the next plane and I came back to Clearwater. Before I did, I went to the New York Organization and I said, "You don't have to look for me or come bring me back. I'm going back on my own free will." I wrote a long letter to Ron Hubbard. I told him everything that was occurring; I said that I hadn't been able to leave Flag. "I feel I've done all the requirements." I arrived back in Clearwater -- do you want me to continue talking? MR. LeCHER: No -- yes. I'm just looking at the time. We should break for lunch soon and we should question you after lunch. Why don't we go till twelve-thirty and, then, we can break for lunch and come back around two -- MS. TAVERNA: Okay. MR. LeCHER: -- and you can finish and, then, we can ask you some questions. MR. CALDERBANK: How long will it take, do you think, to finish your story? MS. TAVERNA: It won't be very long, because the last thing I've done in Scientology is this what I'm telling you now, when I stayed at Flag MR. LeCHER: We'll go the latest till twelve-thirty. MS. TAVERNA: Okay. MR. LeCHER: If you can finish in that time, I'd appreciate it. Then, we'll ask you questions and you can reiterate after lunch. MS. TAVERNA: So, I will actually finish everything I have to say by twelve-thirty and MR. LeCHER: If you can. MS. TAVERNA: All right. MR. LeCHER: If you -- I'd like to have you back after lunch anyway so we can ask you a few questions. MS. TAVERNA: Okay, fine. MR. LeCHER: If you can't finish, save it for later. MS. TAVERNA: Okay. So; I came back. When I came back, I was treated as a Blown Student. I was -- I had to do Ethics conditions; I had to make amends. I had to do physical labor to make up far my crime. I had to get -- do all this and, when it was completed, I had to have people sign that I was allowed back into the group. I did all of this. I went back. I said I would do anything, I would do retraining. I went back and did my training again. There were no misunderstoods found. I went back to auditing people. The same thing happened: finishing, not being able to go home. Again, I went down again. I got very sick again. The times that I was physically ill at the Fort Harrison one time in particular was when the arthritis really flared up. I was sitting, waiting to see the Ethics Officer, and the Commanding Officer, Bill Franks, came by and screamed very loudly, "What are you doing here? Why aren't you auditing?" I said, "Because I'm sick." He said, "What kind of sick?" He said, "Maybe cleaning toilets will fix that." And I was put on cleaning toilets for the afternoon and doing physical work. I was then put on work doing -- putting paper clips through binders when my fingers -- I couldn't bend my fingers from the arthritis. And I don't know if it was intentional, but I burst into tears because I couldn't bend my fingers to do the work that they gave me. I was put in the kitchen, in the galley, to wash pots, in the laundry room, all types of physical labor during times that I was ill. This was to make amends for whatever -- or I don't know. One particular time, I was -- I went back to my training and I was trying very hard. Even though I couldn't sleep and couldn't eat, I was, like, going through my training, saying, "I'm going to do it this time no matter what. I'm not going to let them stop me." I was holding some folders, auditing folders, and all of a sudden I felt that I was starting to faint or something was happening. My left side started to go numb and I started -- my hands went into a spasm. I felt that I was getting a heart attack, and the left side of my face started to feel paralyzed. I tried to stay calm, and I walked/ I don't know if I told the person in charge. You're not allowed to go anywhere without informing your senior or your supervisor. I think I slowly walked to the Medical Officer. The Fort Harrison had a Medical officer who handled any ill person. You go on what's called a routing form, and the first person you see is the Medical Officer. So, I walked into his office and I tried to speak very slowly. I said, "I feel very sick." By the time I got there, my legs started to go into a spasm and my hands crumbled up and I couldn't feel the left side of my face. I became very frightened. And I said, "I feel that I am maybe getting a heart attack." I couldn't breathe; I had severe pains in my chest. The Medical Officer said -- he looked like he was concerned. He hadn't been concerned before. But he said -- he studied for a while and then said, "Well, go to your room and rest for a while." This is the first time I had been told to rest and not put on physical work. I said, "You don't understand, I feel that something is happening to me." I was trying to tell him I needed medical assistance. He looked again and said, "Well, why don't you come back in about an hour and let me know how you're feeling?" And I was trying not to get upset. And then, my left side really went into a spasm and my -- something happened to the air; I couldn't breathe. And he made a phone call, he got a car, and I was rushed to a doctor. It was an oriental woman; I forgot her name. I think she's on Fort Harrison Road. It's about five minutes from the Fort Harrison. I went in there and she gave me a pill to take. I found out -- I asked her later and it was a Valium, which I had never taken in my life before, but it was to relax me. And she said that.-- she gave me an electrocardiogram, and I was to stay there for about an hour. She said that my heart was fine. She said I hyperventilated and I had muscle spasms from nerves. She said I was suffering from extreme stress, from physical exhaustion. And she said, "I know you're part of the Church of Scientology and I know that you must be very conscientious." She said, "I noticed a lot of the people there are in the same state," because they obviously had come to her. She said, "They work too hard, too many hours." She said, "You have to learn to rest." She prescribed walks for an hour a day and hot baths three times a day, and certain things that I had to do to recuperate, which I actually never did. I don't know where I'm up to from here. Anyway, I'll briefly end it here, my leaving Clearwater. It got worse and worse and worse: my physical state, my mental state. At one point, the Ethics Officer, her name was Sunny -- I was doing errands for her because they didn't know what to do with me. So, they were just keeping me with the Ethics Officer and giving me little chores to do to watch me. She asked me if I would just help her to go to the airport because they had a Scientologist who was leaving Scientology and they knew that his wife would want to leave with him. And they had to physically restrain her at the airport, and could I help with this. It was a stupid thing to ask me. My -- I guess she realized it soon after and said, "Well, never mind. I think we have enough people." So, I knew at this point that they would physically restrain me, and I had a feeling that something really bad would happen if I tried to blow again. So, I decided to say anything that I had to say to leave. I said that I was -- I was -- it was my case. I said -- and I finally said the right thing to leave. I said, "I decided that I need more NOTS auditing. And my case is in such bad shape that I can't do it while I'm in the Sea Org. I'm chronically ill, so I don't really fit the requirements here. So, I'm going to go home and I'll just sell my business and I'm going to come back to Flag and I'm going to buy my NOTS auditing." So, this obviously was the right thing to say at the time. I went to see the Registrar. He gave me an estimate of $20,000.00. I said, "That'll be a breeze." I said, "My business is worth more than that. I'll get the money very quickly." At that point, I was able to leave with no one stopping me. It took me a couple of weeks to recuperate when I got back to New York. I -- it took me about two weeks before I could function normally, and I had the effects for probably a long time. I'd like to describe after lunch what happened after that. But basically, that's when I left the org. MR. LeCHER: Thank you very much. It's been very enlightening. I'm glad you're here and you're doing a wonderful job, and I hope you're not too nervous. Come back after lunch around two o'clock and we'll continue with our discussion. This meeting is now recessed until two. (Whereupon, the luncheon recess was taken.) Afternoon Session MR. LeCHER: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome back to the Clearwater City Commission Hearing with reference to Scientology. Again, we're here on our second day, and starting May -- Monday, the Scientologists will have the equal opportunity that the city has had up to this point to present their side of the issue and, also, their witnesses. We are back in session and we are interviewing now Lori Taverna. And Lori has been speaking earlier today, this morning. She has specifically been speaking about Clearwater. I would like to have you continue your remarks. I would prefer that you keep it, if possible, specifically, again, to Clearwater with respect to what's going on there. And again, stay away from anything that might be construed as religion or faith or worship. And so, Lori, would you like to start? And tell us in your own words. LORI TAVERNA, Resumed. MS. TAVERNA: Okay. What I'm going to do now is refer to my notes and fill in anything MR. LeCHER: Sure. MS. TAVERNA: -- that I left out earlier. Specifically, as to the living quarters at the Fort Harrison -- or how it was to be there as a student or as an auditor: I mentioned that it was very overcrowded, there's ten bunks in a room. There were also many bugs in the room. There were roaches; there were ants on the sheets. There was -- I don't know what it is. It's a very large bug that looked like a roach that would fly around the room regularly. MR. LeCHER: I think they're called palmetto bugs. MS. TAVERNA: Well, I've never seen those before. MR. LeCHER: We all know them. MS. TAVERNA: Okay. Also, there was one bathroom for ten people. To get ready in the morning was very hassled. When I was at Clearwater when I was a student and when I was an auditor, we had thirty minutes to eat where we had to -- I was taking courses over at the other bank building, and we had to run to the Fort Harrison, then, we had to wait on the line with, sometimes, thirty people, get our food and eat it, and be back on post for roll call in thirty minutes. So, most of the time we didn't eat or we had indigestion. That part of it is very upsetting. If you were late, even a minute, you had to go to Ethics and have handling or do conditions to make amends for being late. I'd like to speak a little bit about the Medical Officer. I mentioned times that I was ill. I did see the Medical Officer a few times. The first time I saw him was when I arrived in Clearwater. I was told that I had to get a shot, and I said, "What was it for?" And he said it was a hepatitis shot. And I said, "Well, why do I have to get this?" And he said because I just came from Los Angeles and at the Los Angeles Organization there was an epidemic of hepatitis. So, anyone arriving from Los Angeles had to get this. At first I objected. I -- you know, I don't take that much medicine and I didn't know really what it was. But I agreed and I had a shot from the Medical Officer. When you're on NOTS, you also -- NED for OTs auditing, people are required to take certain vitamins. You have to take B 1. 1 think it was five hundred milligrams -- I'm not sure -- which I think is very large. And you also had to have three or four glasses of something called Calmag. This is calcium magnesium, and you have to drink this. This is something for your nerves, which is like a natural tranquilizer to keep you destimulated, as they call it, during processing. I had a bad reaction to both of them. I had nightmares from the B1. It was an overdose of vitamins. But all people were required to do this. One instance that I disagreed with when I was there was there was a little boy who was ill. He was one of the children of the staff members at the Fort Harrison. And I was called in to help to audit this little boy because I had a good reputation as an auditor. So, I went there and I found this little boy. He had a hundred and five fever. He was unable to move his head and his neck. I think it was like symptoms of meningitis or something like that. He was very flushed and feverish. And the case supervisor was the person who directs you in auditing and had instructed me to run some processes on him, basically, to handle any upsets. And I went there with my E-Meter and I had this little boy pick up the cans; he was too weak to hold the cans. So, I just didn't do it. I said, "This child is too sick to receive auditing. I think he should go to a doctor." The Medical Officer said, "Well" -- he had a medical book in which he looked up certain things. And he said, "I don't feel that he's in any danger. We'll see how he is tomorrow." So, he didn't -- the boy didn't see a doctor. I don't know if he did after I left. I never went back, but I had that little boy on my mind. And I felt it was improper handling to audit this -- a kid who was sick. Oh, one thing I neglected to say before: After I left Flag unauthorized and came back, I was then guarded. I was watched constantly. I felt that I had to sneak to make a phone call. I was also told that I was not allowed to speak to my sisters. Two of them there were not allowed to communicate. And I was moved out of the room. So, my sister was now at the Gray Moss Inn, and I had to move into a dorm with other Scientologists because I guess they didn't trust me to be out of the building because I had already run away one time. So, I actually snuck out a few times at two in the morning to go across the street to talk to my sister, Rosie. And this was like a high crime. We weren't allowed to communicate because we had what they called mutual upset; in other words, we would conspire, like, I would tell her what was bothering me and it would stir up a conspiracy. So, for maybe a month or so, I was not allowed to speak to my sister. And, also, after I came back, the first night before we got separated, a Scientologist was sent to our room at the Gray Moss Inn to guard us during the night while we were sleeping, which -- MR. LeCHER: Go at you? MS. TAVERNA: Excuse me? MR. LeCHER: Go at you, you're saying? MRS. GARVEY: Guard. MS. TAVERNA: Guard. MR. LeCHER: Guard? MS. TAVERNA: Yeah. When I -- she came into the room and she happened to be a friend of mine who I knew from New York. And I said -- I convinced her finally that I wasn't going to run away again, and I didn't. I promised her I wouldn't. She said her assignment was to guard us and stay in the room during the night so we wouldn't leave. I felt sorry for her, because I knew if I did leave after I promised her that she would have some sort of punishment. And I didn't plan on running away again anyway. But they did guard us. When I was at the Fort Harrison, there was a thing called the RPF, which is the Rehabilitation Project Force. I never felt good about this. There's a lot of things in Scientology that I never felt good about. I saw them and kind of just didn't understand them, especially, when I saw some of my friends in this RPF, very nice, good people. One day they would be fine and smiling and, then a good friend of mine, the next day, she was in this RPF. She was -- everyone in it has to wear blue. They wear blue shorts and shirts. They're not allowed to speak to anyone. They had to always run; you're never allowed to stop. If you stopped running, you're punished or put into something more severe, which is called the RPF's RPF, if you break the rules. That's something that most Scientologists don't know about. I didn't know that much about it at the time. But all I know is what I saw. I saw a few people who looked very sick. One woman had sores all over her body, open sores. I went into my friend. I asked her if I'm allowed to speak to her. She said, "You can speak to your friend, but in the RPF they're not allowed to communicate to anyone outside the RPF." So, I went to her, and she kept her head down. And when I addressed her, I said -- her eyes were all swollen, she had been crying. And I said, "What happened?" She said she couldn't talk about it, and she said -- she called me "Sir." As a matter of fact, this is the person who recruited me for that Operation Z, a very bright, beautiful, young girl. And in the RPF, if anyone speaks to you, you have to address them as "Sir." And I felt very upset for her. I cried, thinking that she was calling me "Sir." But she just said, "It's going to be fine," you know, through tears in her eyes. And I don't know the details of why she got in there. People in the RPF are not allowed to eat with the rest of the people. After we finished eating, they would come and eat whatever, you know, was left, you know, same food, though, but never sit at the table with another person. They're considered a lower -- you know, a lower level. And the purpose of it is to rehabilitate them because they have become so degraded and so psychotic that they have to be separated and go through this particular physical work. They work for half a day and get audited or processed for half a day until they come up to the next level. Another thing I've never felt good in Scientology about is the care of children. I have three children and I've always given them my full attention. At the Fort Harrison, they had a -- I never had my children at the Fort Harrison. But it happened to be right downstairs from the Medical officer. So, whenever I would go there, I would glance in and see the children. Once I heard a child screaming very loudly. I went down just from instinct, you know, and I walked into where they keep the children. There was a toddler, he was all alone. His diaper was falling off and he was screaming. There was no adult there. I just picked him up and, you know, patted him a little bit. Several times there were other children wandering around fighting with each other, you know, the way children do. It was right next to the parking lot in the back, and -- but they did have a gate there so the children wouldn't go out. But many times I saw them -- they were kind of just left there. I can't say I know exactly how they were cared for, but from what I saw they were dirty. The room Z went into was a mess; there were no sheets on the beds; and there were things thrown all around the room. As far as education goes, in Scientology for all the years I've been in, there has been a put down of education by Ron Hubbard, by Scientologists. The school system is suppressive. A Scientologist has said to me several times, "You're not sending your kids to college, are you?" And I said, "Of course, I am." And she said, "How could you do that," as if I was committing a crime. As recently as last week, my daughter has a friend who's a Scientologist -- she was at her house -- and the mother -- Debbie mentioned when she goes to college she's thirteen now. And the mother said, who's a Scientologist, "Debbie, why would you want to go to college?" And she said, "Because I want to learn about this and that." And she said, "Ron Hubbard has the greatest technology in the world. You don't need college; college is a waste of time." She said, "What do you want to learn?" She said, "Well, I want to learn about the business world." She said, "Even if I don't have my own business, I want to be smart so I can understand it." She said, "Ron Hubbard has the greatest business technology and managing/administrative technology there is and you can get it in Scientology. You should be taking your courses and going clear." So, education is discouraged very much in Scientology. It's a suppressive organization that doesn't really teach you anything. And as long as you have your Scientology training, you're going to make it in the world. My daughter was in the Sea Org.; she was in there for seven months while I was training here in Clearwater. She had no schooling at all. She said she went to school, I think, three times. She had to work from eight in the morning till ten-thirty at night seven days a week. And they said there was no time for school. She was told that she would have weekends off in the Sea Org. This never happened. She got Saturday afternoon off for three hours because stats were up. She soon realized that this was not what -- she was in the wrong place. I wasn't there, but she was living with my brother-in-law, so she never actually lived in the quarters with the other children. My daughter has gone to Scientology schools since she was born, literally. She went to a nursery and, then, she had all her education up until she was eleven years old in a Scientology school. I discovered -- well, guess, she was ten -- up until ten. I discovered when she was ten or eleven that she didn't know math. I felt very negligent. I assumed she's a brilliant girl. She was reading at three years old, very mature. Somehow it came out that she didn't know the two times table. Nothing. I got very, very upset. I went to the school, and they begged me not to take her out. They told me that the GO would pounce on her; that was the words that they used. The Ability School was run -- I don't know the details, but the GO had some authority over the way the school was run. And the people who ran it said, you know, "This would be very bad if a Scientologist took their child out." I said, "I don't care what it looks like. My children -- I want my children to have an education and this is absurd." I took her out and I put her in public school. She immediately went up to fifth grade math. She was just she's very bright. She was never taught anything in the school. The school was run like a Scientology organization; they had Ethics conditions. The children were also taught about the enemy in the outside world. Scientology children have an attitude that it's the suppressives out there and Scientologists. They've often said things to my daughter about going into the WOG world. A WOG is someone not in Scientology. And when they heard she was going to public school, they frightened her. They -- my daughter cried for three days because she thought they were going to kill her in public school. And since then, she's out of Scientology. She knows everything that I do now. But basically, the -- education is totally put down in Scientology. When I was in Los Angeles recently, visiting my sister, I helped out in a Scientology private school. It was called Renaissance School. I'm not an official teacher, but I was helping because they didn't have anyone. There was a boy there who was nine years old. He had been brought up in the Sea Org.; his parents both were in and he was born in. He -- I understand from the owners of the school that he spent most of his nine years in the Children's RPF. I don't know what that is, but I assume it's the same thing as the adult RPF. This boy couldn't read one word at nine years old. And I taught him how to read his first word, and I taught him his first sentence. And he just -- he was crying that he could read one sentence. He was nine years old, and he was born in Scientology and sent to Scientology schools. I also know that the children have a lot of illnesses. I don't know -- I didn't see it, but my sister was there. And the children in the child care org. in Los Angeles -- a friend called my sister and said, "I need help. My son is very ill and I don't know what to do." My sister went there and her friend's son had a fever and was crying. His job was to be the nanny; he was to watch the younger children and he had a high fever. She went to the Medical officer and she said, "This boy is sick; he needs a doctor." He said, "He's not sick; I examined him. And he's supposed to be on post." He said, "There's nothing wrong with him." He said, "I already know what it is. The children have herpes." And my sister walked in and she saw infants -- she saw babies on the floor. They had sores all over their face and mouth. And my sister went into a rage. She went in and she said, "I want these children taken care of." And the Medical Officer said, "Well, who are you? What are you doing here?" He said, "As a matter of fact, I won't talk to you anymore." He said, "We don't have any money for a doctor." So, she said, "Well, you get the money." And then, finally, my sister got so mad, she said, "Well, if you don't do something about these children right now, I'm calling the Board of Health." When she said that, she got a lot of attention: GO people, "Do you realize what you just said?" She was declared PTS, threatening to embarrass or sue Scientology, one of those categories. The Medical Officer called her -- he said, "You just committed a suppressive act." She said, "No. You committed the suppressive act." She said, "I want these children cared for." So, I know this goes on. I've seen it. I've seen many sick children in Scientology, and it's looked at that you should be on post. They don't need a doctor. The Medical officer sometimes acts as a doctor. I've never seen them administer medicine, but it's more neglect than administering. They don't get the proper medical care. Something I neglected to say: When we first arrived at the Fort Harrison in Clearwater here, you had to get security clearance before you're allowed on the -- to be officially here or to get -- to be on NOTS. It takes about a week. They check your life; they check everything. And the person in charge was Skip Henson at the time. And you have to get -- read some beginning indoctrination of how to respond if anyone in Clearwater asks you a question. There are certain set answers that you should give if a resident happens to say, "What are you doing here? What happens at the Fort Harrison?" I don't remember what they are exactly, but it's something to the effect that "If anyone asks you anything, 'I'm here for religious counseling.'" It was something like that, but I can't remember. When they had rallies, you were told that the mayor was a suppressive person, that the officials in Clearwater were suppressive. They were trying to stop -- stamp out Scientology. We had GO briefings. When they had some sort of rally here, we were instructed. I think the woman's name was Nancy. She was giving the briefing. MR. LeCHER: Nancy Risi? MS. TAVERNA: Yes. She gave the briefing. And she said that "If any reporters or anyone comes to you, don't answer any questions about anything. Refer them to me." We were also instructed -- every time some type of official would come into the Fort Harrison, students were given a little slip or a form: "The Fire Commissioner is coming," or "Some lawyers are going to be here," "Some WOGs are coming," you know, something like this. "Dress a certain way tomorrow because so and so is coming." We always had warning before any type of inspection was done. They would clear up whatever that particular thing was. MR. LeCHER: A WOG is an outsider, again? MS. TAVERNA: A WOG is a person who is not. in Scientology, so that's how they refer to someone like that. I think that I covered most of my notes here. MR. LeCHER: We don't even know where to start, you've said so many startling things. One thing that struck me, though, was herpes. Isn't that a venereal disease? MS. TAVERNA: There's two types. My sister took the child and paid for it herself; she took the child to the doctor. He was given antibiotics. She said it was a virus-type of herpes rather than a venereal -- they're two different things. MRS. GARVEY: There are cold sores MR. CALDERBANK: We used to get MR. LeCHER: -It was diagnosed, though? MS. TAVERNA: Yes. It was diagnosed by the doctor. MR. LeCHER: All right. While you were deeply involved in all these things, did you still believe in the incredible background of L. Ron Hubbard? Ms. TAVERNA: I believed totally in L. Ron Hubbard until recently. I felt very sorry for him. I felt deep compassion. I felt that I was trying -- I had tried for seventeen years to make the organization sane and I said, "If I feel this way, what must Ron Hubbard be going through?" And I felt a devotion to him to try to make it sane. I felt that he was one of the greatest men that ever, ever lived, and I wanted to help him up until recently. Even after Clearwater I said, "If Ron Hubbard only knew." As I said, up until recently. MR. LeCHER: I don't know if I can ask this, but: Generally, what is the ultimate thing you expected with the new breakthrough? Would that be an exhibit of faith? You were looking for this new breakthrough which kept you going, apparently, in this organization. MR. FLYNN: It would probably be wiser to - MR.. LeCHER: I will ignore it and forget I asked the question. And I will stick to things that happened in Clearwater. You said there's a cramming hold. What is a cramming hold, what was his name, and where was the office, this cramming hold office? MS. TAVERNA: What was that MR. LeCHER: Cramming - MS. TAVERNA: -- the second word? MR. LeCHER: Hold. MS. TAVERNA: Hole? MR. LeCHER: Cramming office. Where was it and who manned the cramming office? MS. TAVERNA: The cramming office was right next to where the pool is. You had to go alongside the pool and, then, go in the back. It was in the back of the cabana-type rooms. That's where the cramming was. MR. LeCHER: Would you know if that still exists? MS. TAVERNA: Cramming always exists in Scientology in every organization in the world. MR. LeCkER: Again, for the benefit of those that are new and for the audience: Again, what is cramming? Ms. TAVERNA: Cramming is the department in Scientology which is correction. If someone doesn't apply the technology properly, if it appears that they have misunderstood words, cramming is supposed to find the misunderstood and handle it so the person can do it correctly. There's something I want to say about cramming which I forgot to say, if I could just add it. MR. LeCHER: If it's not -- doesn't have to do with faith or religious ceremony, I want to hear it. MS. TAVERNA: Yes. This doesn't -- has to do with the treatment of people there by the Cramming officer. I went in there and this is one of my first few visits to cramming there was a woman who was probably about sixty-five years old, she was a NOTS auditor, she was there for training, which is admirable because people who become auditors want to help people. She apparently made some kind of mistake; she was sitting there; she was trembling; she had tears in her eyes. The Cramming Officer -- his name was Spike Bush who, in my opinion -- never mind. Well, his name is Spike Bush. He was standing there -- he was sitting down, she was in front of him. He was pounding the table. She said, "But" --she was stuttering. She said, "But I thought -- but I thought." He said, "Don't think." He said, "That's your problem, you think." He pounded the table at least six times while he was screaming at the top of his lungs, "Don't think." And I -- okay. MR. LeCHER: Well, if you want to continue, I did you ever -- after fifteen years, didn't you ever feel like a slave or indentured servant? I mean, you're working for $10.00 a week. And how did you exist and take care of your children? MS. TAVERNA: No. For all the years that I was in, I never felt like a slave or that I was working for nothing. When I was on staff, I was married at the time -- his is before my divorce so my husband was taking care of the bills. My children came with me when they were young. I always brought them with me and I had them in a nursery. And I always went home by three o'clock in the beginning when my children were little. And I had a home and I had a normal life, not like many Scientologists who had no other income. And in later years, I worked in a mission, which paid $125.00 a week and I only worked till six o'clock. So, I had other businesses at nights or on the weekends where I would do sales or something like that. The only time that I have ever felt I was treated not as a human being was at Clearwater in '79. Before that, I felt that it didn't matter if I got $3.00 or $10.00; it had nothing to do with the money at the time. It had to do with just helping to make a better world. It didn't matter. MR. LeCHER: Okay. You said in Clearwater, when you were here, they were collecting about a million dollars a week, and I think you may have mentioned in one week there was 2.3 million dollars. MS. TAVERNA: No, I don't know that. I think someone else said that. MR. LeCHER: All right. Well, a million dollars is a lot of money -- MS. TAVERNA: Yeah. MR. LeCHER: -- a week. Who collected it and was it in cash? And where did you put it? Did it leave the area? MS. TAVERNA: I don't know anything about the finances. There were -- I know that you -- I know where the money goes. You bring it to the cashier. There's a cashier window. First, you go to the Registrar; you sign up for what service you want. It costs a specific amount of money. You have to pay in advance. Then, you go to the cashier. You pay the money there however you want to pay it. They give you a receipt for your services. Then, you go start the course. MR. LeCHER: With so much money coming in, such a cash flow, why was it you were fed beans and rice? MS. TAVERNA: I have asked people that question, and they said, "It's very expensive to run the Fort Harrison and there's just not enough money." I felt it was absolutely absurd, and I had many questions about where the money was going. Mi. LeCHER: How do you feel about being denied medical treatment, you and other people that you came in contact with? MS. TAVERNA: Well, I - MR. LeCHER: Was that widespread? MS. TAVERNA: Not getting medical treatment? MR. LeCHER: Yes. MS. TAVERNA: Well, you can see a doctor in Scientology. You could go to a doctor, but you go through the Medical Officer. In other words, he makes recommendations. MR. LeCHER: All right. You had a Medical officer. What was his or her qualifications? Was it a nurse or -- MS. TAVERNA: No.The fellow who was -- MR. LeCHER: I'm sorry, go ahead. MS. TAVERNA: The fellow who was the Medical Officer when I was there -- I can't remember his name -- he wasn't a doctor, but he had some training of some sort. I don't know what you call it, like an aide who -- an assistant. He had some type of medical knowledge, definitely not a doctor. I never met a Medical officer who was a doctor in Scientology. It's usually just a regular staff member. It could be anyone. You don't even have to have any knowledge of medicine. Basically, you use L. Ron Hubbard's policies on -- well, actually, it doesn't go even that far. He'll just determine if it needs medical attention or any -- something like that. But you're never actually denied. Like, if you insist and say, "I want to see a doctor," you'll probably have to go through and convince him, because you can go. I've never been denied medical treatment. MR. LeCHER: Is any labor performed at the Fort Harrison by townspeople that get paid the minimum wage or more as to what they're worth? MS. TAVERNA: You mean, people hired -- MR. LeCHER: Like painters, plumbers -- MS. TAVERNA: No. MR. LeCHER: -- carpenters -- MS. TAVERNA: I never saw anyone at the Fort Harrison -- MR. LeCHER: masons? MS. TAVERNA: doing anything, other than Scientologists. So, I don't know. In other words, they'd hire people who have certain skills, like, if someone was a plumber, they'll try to recruit them. The whatever -- other things. They have all Scientologists running the Fort Harrison, as far as I've ever known. MR. LeCHER: You talked about business courses. What business courses were offered for either for students or for someone of your age? MS. TAVERNA: A business course? Well, there's -- MR. LeCHER: You said that the Founder knows more about business than anybody else. And I was wondering what he taught? MS. TAVERNA: I'm trying to think of the names of the courses. Well, they had the Flag Executive Briefing Course, FEBC, and they had the OEC, the Organizational Executive Course I guess it's called. And in there, there are all policies on managing a business, on administrative policies. They tell you exactly how to run an organization, how to set it up, how to make an organization board, and so forth: flow lines within an organization. MR. LeCHER: Were you given any contact with the outside world while you were at Clearwater? Were you did you make outside friends, like, go to the beach or -- MS. TAVERNA: No. I never spoke to anyone in Clearwater. It was kind of -- you just don't do that. No one told me I couldn't speak to anyone. It's just something you don't do; I don't know why. MR. LeCHER: Where is the the RPF? MS. TAVERNA: Yeah. MR. LeCHER: Where are those people and where are they kept? Are they, you know -- do they have a separate office or how do they become -- how do you become an RPF, first of all? MS. TAVERNA: Well, you are placed in the RPF for breaking the rules, for -- sort of like you'd say, in other words, for committing a crime. If you -- I can just give you examples of crimes that someone might do. If your stats were very down -- I can't say. I don't have -- really, I don't have knowledge. I've seen things where it says that "So and so is assigned to the RPF." You'll get something, some kind of Ethics hearing like a Committee of Evidence where people will listen, see what your crime was, and decide if you should go in the RPF or not. Certain things that are instant RPF, I think, like, having sex with someone who you're not married to. I think that would -- I'm not positive, but I think that would be RPF. MR. LeCHER: That would be considered a crime? MS. TAVERNA: That was -- that's definitely a crime, I know that. MR. LeCHER: About these children who go to school: Didn't you find it curious that your child couldn't -- although she could read well -- couldn't do her two times two tables or mathematic tables? MS. TAVERNA: I -- it was one of the biggest shocks of my life. It -- I was I felt bad for my own neglect that I did assume. I just assumed that she was in school. I was working very hard in my own business, and she was just so bright. The teacher always said she was doing fine, you know, and she was doing wonderful. And you just don't go around, you know, asking the kid, you know, "What's five times" -- MR. LeCHER: I understand. MS. TAVERNA: You know, I just assumed. It's such a natural part of learning. Until some -- she told me that she didn't want -- she didn't want to play a game. And I said, "Well, why," you know. She said, "Because I'm stupid," because there was a child much younger than her who was figuring out math in this game. And she's been crying hundreds of hours since then because I immediately tried to put her into a private school that my sons went to. My sons went to one of the best schools in the city, a private school. And I wanted her to go there. And they wouldn't accept her. I didn't tell her why; I said they were too crowded. She had special scores, and she was in the one percentile in math. And I'm still trying to repair her right now and getting her a special tutor and, then, try to re-enter her in the private school. And I work with her everyday now an hour. MR. LeCHER: Do you think there's young people there that are being raised without a minimal education that we have grown to expect in Pinellas County for our own children? MS. TAVERNA: I'm sorry, could you repeat that? MR. LeCHER: Do you think that there are people within Clearwater, within the Scientologist organization, that are still not getting the proper education, as was illustrated in the case of your own child? MS. TAVERNA: I positively think so, but I don't know. The reason I think so is because, when I was at Clearwater, I saw children very often during the day with people -- little children who were folder pages, and they would be in uniform with their shorts and lanyards. And they would be -- they were my daughter's friends from New York who had joined the Sea Organization to come here. And they would be working during school hours, folder pages. I don't know if they didn't have school. If they did, I don't know where it was. But I did see children many times during the day working. MR. LeCHER: All right these young people were folding pages, you say? MS. TAVERNA: Folder pages. They carried the pages of -- in other words, if you were going to audit someone, you would call for a certain folder where the records are kept and these folder pages would bring it to you -- the auditor. MR. LeCHER: Sort of like a page, then? MS. TAVERNA: A page to carry a messenger; that's what they were called, little messengers. MR. LeCHER: They weren't folding pages, like pages in a book? MS. TAVERNA: No, no, no. A messenger to bring folders to different locations. MR. LeCHER: You were here since I have been Mayor and we've had sometimes a stormy time here. Didn't any of these other outside activities that the city or other private individuals may have done -- didn't it ever affect you or didn't you ever question what you were doing there, or maybe question the credibility of the background of L. Ron Hubbard? MS. TAVERNA: I definitely wondered what I was doing here when I was in Clearwater. I didn't question the credibility of Ron Hubbard; it was so embedded in me that, through all the suffering that I went through, I never once considered that L. Ron Hubbard had anything to do with it. I considered him a victim of a lot of stupid people who wouldn't listen to this good man, and I never once questioned him. I -- I felt terrible about the people in Clearwater. I -- they probably had a peaceful town here and, I think, people come up and start changing things. And I -- I actually snuck out and would read the paper and I would see about infiltration into the Clearwater Sun. And I would think, I said, "Why don't they leave people alone," you know. And I was very upset about it. But it was, like, a separate thing. That was the GO. That was not my field. My field was counseling people. And I said, "If only the GO would be decent and" -- I said, "How can Clearwater be friendly toward Scientology?" I mean, if someone came into my town and started infiltrating and staging these things and dressing up as clowns, you know, I wouldn't like it either. I was embarrassed to be a Scientologist when I was here. I felt embarrassed for Ron Hubbard. I thought that these people were destroying Scientology by making it a mockery. And I wouldn't talk to a resident, I guess, because I would never say I was a Scientologist; I was embarrassed. Sometimes, people would go by and yell out things or throw stones, and I said, you know, "Boy, I'm embarrassed." MR.. LeCHER: Were you here when they -- the Scientologists protested or picketed the Clearwater Sun dressed up as Nazis? MS. TAVERNA: I remember them dressed up as Nazis. I didn't know what they were picketing, but I saw Nazi uniforms and I -- again, I was very embarrassed and I thought it was an insane act. I think people probably -- people did then think that Scientology was -- Scientologists were Nazis. They didn't understand what they were doing. I saw the uniforms and I was very embarrassed by it. MR. LeCHER: I think most -- many other people were embarrassed for them. One more question and I'll turn it over. What what do you think your typical day was like here in Clearwater? Just give me a routine of the typical day that's not particularly difficult, not particularly easy but just a normal day at Clearwater when you were here at the height of -- MS. TAVERNA: A student? MR. LeCHER: A student. MS. TAVERNA: A student would have to -- let me see, my memory is a little foggy. Most of it was horror, so I don't remember a normal day -- MR. LeCHER: Well -- MS. TAVERNA: Well, you wake up -- every day is the same as every other day, which I have now found is a very destructive thing. In other words, you wake up and you have to be at muster at -- this is now maybe eight-fifteen, eight-thirty, something like this. You must be there, and they say, "That's it." They call your name; it's very rigid, very official. Your muster is called and, then, you'll be given your schedule of the day: who you're auditing, what time. It's posted on the board. You'll audit these people one after another. They come in and out. You might have six preclears; it's sort of like an assembly line. You finish with one, the next ones waiting. You take them in. Then, you get your half hour lunch to run back and forth. You'll get: "Audit people, audit people," till ten o'clock at night. You go to sleep; you wake up. It's exactly the same every day.. It is just a -- I lost touch with reality when I was there, like, I really didn't know what day it was, what month it was; it didn't matter. And most of it was through severe physical pain. I just -- it was a big blur. MR. LeCHER: You said, "physical pain." But you were not -- earlier, you said you were allowed to go to a doctor. And, also, another time they said you couldn't, or you implied that. I Am I to conclude that you could go if you could convince the Medical Officer that it was serious enough? MS. TAVERNA: I didn't even think of going to a doctor; I didn't care. I didn't ask to go; I didn't -- I just wanted to get out of there. I knew that once I got away, I didn't need a doctor; I had to go home. And when I did go home, I was in perfect health after about two weeks. I haven't had any problems with it. I mean, I wasn't chronically ill with arthritis; I mean, it hadn't bothered me in maybe eight years. It's not that I was suffering with this and I came into Scientology to handle it. I didn't care about it. It was just from this undue stress that something happened to my system. So, I really never had any thoughts about the doctor. I just wanted to leave. MR. LeCHER: Did you ever see any skimming of the million dollars a week coming in? Did anybody try and skim or -- within the organization, or take a little bit off the top? MS. TAVERNA: I have no information on the money or where it went. MR. LeCHER: Okay. MR. CALDERBANK: Yeah. Lori, let's talk about education. You said your daughter went to a Scientology school how long while in Pinellas County? Ms. TAVERNA: Oh, no, she didn't go to school here. MR. CALDERBANK: She didn't? Ms. TAVERNA: No. She went to school in New York and, then, she went to school in Los Angeles while I was training here. MR. CALDERBANK: Okay. As a Scientology school, did they have specific hours at all for education, a certain number of hours? MS. TAVERNA: Yes. Well, when she went to private -- it was a private Scientology school which I paid $225.00 a month for. That's where she went to in New York for most of her life. When she joined the Sea Organization, she was in Los Angeles. She only went to school three times in seven months, so there was no hours for school. My nephews were in school at the time and in the Sea Org. and their senior told them -- they were, I think, twelve and ten -- he said, "We're going to give you the minimum education required by law," which happens to be two hours a day, I think. And he said, "Instead of" -- I said, "What did you learn in school?" He said he had algebra; that was the only thing he had in seven months, and he only had that a few times. And his senior told him that "After a couple of weeks, we're going to use these two hours for your Scientology training." He said, "You won't have to go to school at all. MR. CALDERBANK: Okay. Did -- do you have any knowledge of the education here in Clearwater for the children? MS. TAVERNA: No, I don't. MR. CALDERBANK: Okay on your medical -- on the Medical Officer, you said that you made it to a doctor here in town who prescribed you certain medication, certain routines for you to get better; is that correct? MS. TAVERNA: Yes. MR. CALDERBANK: Once you got back to the Scientology headquarters, were you allowed to complete that treatment? MS. TAVERNA: I didn't -- I wasn't prescribed any medication. It was basically bed rest, and I was to walk an hour a day and hot baths three times a day. MR. CALDERBANK: Were you -- did you do that? MS. TAVERNA: No, I didn't. I did it maybe two days. And I don't know why, but I never did it. I can't remember. I was -- it's a -- that period is very foggy because I -- it's all blurred together. I know I didn't take walks. MR. CALDERBANK: Okay. MS. TAVERNA: I took a walk once and the Ethics officer came with me. MR. CALDERBANK: Do you remember who gave you the shot what the name of the Medical officer was when you came to Clearwater? MS. TAVERNA: I've been trying to remember his name and I just can't. I never really -- I guess I did know his name at the time. But it would be on record, I guess, who was the Medical Officer in 1979 of July or August. MR. CALDERBANK: Did you see any certificates on the wall from the state or the county, either for nursing or as an education for a doctor when this person gave you the shot? MS. TAVERNA: No. MR. CALDERBANK: Did he -- MS. TAVERNA: I asked him if he was a doctor and he said, "No." MR. CALDERBANK: And he gave you the shot? MS. TAVERNA: Yes. MR. CALDERBANK. Is this a common practice that the Medical officer would do? MS. TAVERNA: I never heard of it before. But every person who came to Clearwater got the shot; it's the first stop on their routing form. But I never heard of it before Clearwater. MR. CALDERBANK: Okay. While you were at Fort Harrison, there are exits to and from the hotel. Were they clearly marked? Do you remember markings "Exit" or "Fire"? MS. TAVERNA: I think so. It was once ordered that there was an alarm on it and never to use that door. It said, "Exit." And I think if you opened it up some alarm went off. MR. CALDERBANK: Were there any instructions in front of the door? MS. TAVERNA: I don't clearly remember. MR. CALDERBANK: Do you remember any trash or rubbish laying around or tight quarters that would obstruct fire personnel or block exits to and from the building? MS. TAVERNA: Well, I would say, tight quarters that I would think, it's my opinion, that, if there was a fire, with how many people were in each room, it would be very, very hectic trying to get out of the building, because each room had ten people. It's a very small room. The hallways were very, very narrow. I hadn't thought about it when I was there, but looking at it now, it would probably be chaos. MR. CALDERBANK: How would you characterize the living conditions there? Would you characterize them as safe and clean and sanitary or unsanitary and unhealthy? Ms. TAVERNA: I would classify it as unsanitary and very, very uncomfortable. With ten people in the room in the middle of the summer with no air conditioners and a lot of bugs crawling around, it was very, very uncomfortable and unsanitary. MR. LeCHER: One bathroom? MS. TAVERNA: One bathroom in the room, and we had to be on post at eight o'clock. It was very difficult to take a shower and find the right time to do whatever you had to do in the bathroom. MR. CALDERBANK: Now, was this herpes outbreak here in Clearwater? MS. TAVERNA: No. This was in Los Angeles. MR. CALDERBANK: Do you have any knowledge of hepatitis -- was there any hepatitis outbreak at Fort Harrison while you were there? MS. TAVERNA: I don't know. I didn't hear about it. MR. CALDERBANK: Okay. On the -- you were talking about the policy of bringing people back or the RPF, et cetera. Did you ever see anybody restrained or held against their will? Did you ever hear of anybody held or brought back? MS. TAVERNA: I'm trying to think. I know -- I've positively heard of people being gotten and brought back, positively. MR. CALDERBANK: Is this common knowledge? MS. TAVERNA: Yes. MR. CALDERBANK: If you left, you would be brought back? MS. TAVERNA: This is accepted. This is in the bulletin or policy. I think it's called Blown Students. It's in one of the training -- one of the policies concerning -- it's very -- it's not secret; it's out in the open. And I'm a trained supervisor and I studied it and checked out on this material where it says, "If a student blows, you're to do such and such -- call them." If they don't come if you're to go to their home, physically, and bring them back. This is common knowledge to Scientologists. MR. CALDERBANK: How much money did you pay while you were a Scientologist to the organization, approximately? Ms. TAVERNA: Well, in all these years when I was -- it wasn't as expensive when I came in 1965. 1 would have to just guess. In services, I probably ten $10,000.00 to fifteen thousand. In traveling expenses and living expenses for myself and my three children in England for six months, in California from England, I would say, maybe $30,000.00 I've spent. In loss of business, times that I left to go to this Ops Z and everything else, maybe $50,000.00, 1 would say, of money lost. MR. CALDERBANK: Out of the services you paid for, did you ever think of it as a donation or did you pay specifically for a service? MS. TAVERNA: No. There's no such thing as a donation in Scientology for a service. The only donation would be something to the -- I don't know what they call it, but I've donated to it many times, the legal fund. And I thought I was helping people who were being victimized by the government. They would always call me up because I would always give them $50.00, you know, because they knew I worked and had some money. But that's the only donation I know of in Scientology. It's -- no one has ever mentioned the word to me. I've never heard it mentioned to any person who came in for a service. It's what course you want; this costs it costs this much money. You must pay for your course in full, specifically the amount that it lists on the card. And then, you can start your service. MR. CALDERBANK: What made you take the service? Why would you spend $15,000.00 for the services? MS. TAVERNA: Well, it isn't a -- see, when I came in, I didn't come in and spend $15,000.00. The most I ever paid at one time -- I paid for every level they had. In those days, for all the OT levels, it cost a little over $2,000.00, which now would cost a few hundred thousand dollars, maybe. So, that's the largest amount of money I ever paid, which I figured at the time the thing they used for promotion was that for the price of a car, at twenty -- at that time, twenty something hundred dollars, you can have eternal freedom or spiritual freedom. It seemed so ridiculous. Why go buy a car when you can gain all this that was promised. It didn't seem like a large amount of money. So, I never paid these large sums. I took a course at $500.00. I mainly audited and was a staff member. I think I was mainly interested in helping other people. I didn't receive much auditing. I've had very little auditing in Scientology. I didn't feel the need for it. I've been in relatively good shape and I didn't really require much auditing. MR. CALDERBANK: Did you ever tell people while you were auditing them that it would not cure their specific sicknesses and that it had no medical basis -- MS. TAVERNA: I didn't as an auditor. But it states on the E-Meter that "This does not cure illness." And I think, when people sign up, they have to sign something that "I'm not here to cure a specific illness." MR. CALDERBANK: That's all. MR. LeCHER: Mr. Berfield. MR. BERFIELD: I have just a couple of questions here.You spoke very highly of Mr. Hubbard. I take it that you do not believe in him any longer? MS. TAVERNA: No, I don't. MR. BERFIELD: What about his doctrines and philosophies? Do you still have confidence in them? MS. TAVERNA: No, I don't. MR. BERFIELD: If you were to take some of these books and read them now, how would you look upon them? MS. TAVERNA: I have done that. I have read over some of the material which was, I suppose, like a bible to me. And I found out some very fascinating things. I have gone through tremendous emotional upset in the last few months trying to get my mind straight from thinking for seventeen years it's very difficult. And I wanted to: I picked up some of the books and I looked at some of the policies, and it's like reading something that I've never read before. The interpretation that I put on it was my own ideas. I thought it meant what I wanted it to mean. Looking at things now, it says that if a person disagrees they must have a misunderstood word or something to that effect. I see the technology as totally, totally different now. MR. BERFIELD: Do you -- would you envision it as being misleading to the public? MS. TAVERNA: Definitely misleading. MR. BERFIELD: To the point where one could call it fraud or not? MS. TAVERNA: In my opinion, it is totally fraud. MR. BERFIELD: Just a couple of other questions here: One of our purposes in this hearing is, needless to say, our concern with health, safety, and welfare of the people in Clearwater. You mentioned these children. As a mother, the safety or the health of those children, how would you look upon that? Do you think the City of Clearwater has done a disservice to them? MS. TAVERNA: I don't think I understand the question? What is it you want -- MR. BERFIELD: Well, are we performing our duties if these children at the Fort Harrison are going unattended? MS. TAVERNA: No. I feel that attention should be put on the children in Scientology. I feel that they are -- they have no say in this. Their parents are Scientologists. The children are neglected. And I think someone should do something about it. MR. BERFIELD: Mr. Calderbank also asked you a question about the number of people in a room, ten to a room. You did mention, I believe, that you had some High authority inspections. Did you ever have any inspections from the Fire Marshall? MS. TAVERNA: Yes, regularly. MR. BERFIELD: How -- what did they say when they'd come to a room that had ten beds in it? MS. TAVERNA: Oh, I never saw them come into the room ever. We were just informed that they were going to be on the premises tomorrow. I don't what they looked at. I was doing my course and my auditing. I was never in a room where they walked in. MR. BERFIELD: Do you know for a fact whether or not they were given advance notice of these visitations by the various governmental agencies? MS. TAVERNA: I don't know how they found out, but they knew the day -- or they knew, I don't know how much before, but they always told us when it was going to happen. MR. BERFIELD: You also mentioned earlier that a woman had spent somewhere in the neighborhood of two to three hundred thousand dollars on programs. Do you know that for a fact? MS. TAVERNA: Well, the person told me they did. I mean, I didn't see the money. MR. BERFIELD: One -- I guess the last question and I don't really know how to word this -- but going on two points: Do you have any fear of retaliation from being here today? MS. TAVERNA: I can say I don't know what to expect. In the beginning, when I first started this -- which I haven't really explained why I'm doing this, I mean, what brought this about, which I think is significant. I was in terror. I was in absolute fear when I made my first move to find out some more information. I would be cautious, I would say. MR. BERFIELD: I guess the last part of this, the one that bothers me the most: While you were having your problems, do I interpret -- and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth -- that you felt that in the City of Clearwater there was no safe haven or no one to turn to for help? MS. TAVERNA: It never even entered my mind. Through all the years of Scientology, it is embedded in you that you never speak to an outsider about internal problems. In other words, the technology is out. It's like a -- just a code of ethics, like, in other words, if we have a problem in Scientology and somebody is wrong, you don't go to an official because then they would think Scientology is bad, Ron Hubbard is bad. So, we just don't consider things like that. I never -- it never entered my mind. I thought I had to get out through Scientology, I had to rout out. MR. BERFIELD: So, you had to go out through the system and, then, you -- Ms. TAVERNA: Yes. I never considered telling an outsider, because they would then not understand that Ron Hubbard was good and it's only these few people. You have to keep it secret and you keep it internal. You try to write up reports and try to protect Ron Hubbard and the organization. MR. BERFIELD: Just one last one: Not to bear on your personal problems, but your divorce was caused by Scientology? MS. TAVERNA: I wouldn't say it was caused by Scientology. I believe it was a contributing factor because most Scientologists don't associate with WOGs. I was one of the few exceptions, that I achieved this high state and my husband was still a WOG. I was the only one in Scientology at the time, and I was known for it. And people would constantly say to me, "How could you stand it? How could you stand it?" And I couldn't communicate things in Scientology terms to my husband, and I would always be with Scientologists. And I didn't create my marriage properly because I did start to consider him an outsider. It's like -- it didn't cause it. Scientology didn't do anything to my marriage. It's my own distance that was created within it. MR. BERFIELD: No further questions. MR. LeCHER: You started before, and I'll ask you the question: What brought you here today? MS. TAVERNA: After I left Clearwater, I felt that I had just escaped with my life. I really felt that I had been to a hell and that I was alive again. And I just I knew that I would never, ever be on staff or have anything to do with Scientology again. I didn't care if I wasn't contributing anymore. I said, "If it's that bad, let them fix it up. I had no intentions of doing anything against Scientology. I just wanted to stay away. And then, I went recently, in November of this year -- just this past November -- I went to California to live with my sister. And Scientologists would constantly visit because that's basically the only friends they would have the Scientologists. And I was feeling good, standing very well thought of, and they kept telling me stories. And finally, I couldn't stand it anymore. A particular friend came over to the house -- she had just received her NOTS auditing -- and she came in and she said how wonderful she was feeling, that she went to a restaurant, she was eating a hamburger, and all of a sudden the hamburger started screaming at her, and then the walls started screaming. And then she said tears came out of her eyes because she felt so sorry for the other people in the restaurant because they didn't know what she knew. And I got tears in my eyes, and I said, "They can't do this anymore. I want answers." And I looked at the grade chart, and I noticed that a lot of the OT levels were taken off and they were replaced with NOTS; every OT level was NOTS. And it became horrifying to me. I said, "I can't sit back anymore. I want answers. So, I just -- I looked through Paulette Cooper's book, Scandal -- I said, "Maybe, she'll give me a clue." Because up until then a Scientologist never reads anything bad about Scientology. You assume it's a lie immediately, so I was too ignorant to read it at the time. I couldn't get that book. I called Reader's Digest. I looked and finally, I got in touch with a man named Brown McKee. And I spoke with him. He was a declared suppressive, I had heard, who was trying to save Scientology -- quote, "Suppressive Person." So, I said, "I have never talked to a Suppressive Person in seventeen years." It is a high crime; it is a terrifying experience. It took me two days to get up the courage to call Brown McKee. I called him. He was one of the nicest people. He was in Scientology twenty-five years. As a matter of fact, he was on one of the courses I was. He's a Class 8 auditor and so forth. He had the same feelings I had all these years that something's wrong. And he all of a sudden, I tried to find another person and another person. I met Eddie Walters. And we all felt -- and I saw more and more of my friends being damaged. And I said, "I want answers now. I want to know where Ron Hubbard is. I want to know who is running Scientology." I asked them at the advanced organization in Los Angeles. I said, "Who are the Board of Directors? Who is the Watchdog Committee?" This is a committee which no one knows who it is. And I couldn't get any answers. And finally, I started to have thoughts about L. Ron Hubbard. I said, "Wait." I started waking up. I figured it took this time from Clearwater to be away from Scientology. I started thinking straight. And I said, "We are being audited towards more ability, more freedom, more capability to OT," which is operating being or thetan. "How could Ron Hubbard, who is more capable than any of us, be more and more capable and he's hiding for fifteen years? Where is he? Why isn't he helping? Why isn't he coming forward? What" -- so, I asked the people in Scientology in the Sea Org. "Security." I said, "I've been hearing 'security' for ten years. I had -- I don't understand it anymore." I said, "Security? Why doesn't he go on film and give a briefing to Scientologists in the world?" I was getting more and more upset. I said, "I want answers now. Who is running this? What kind of organization is this?" I saw the crimes happening. I started to -- and I also questioned: "Well, how capable is this man?" I said, "His son is not talking to him, which is L. Ron Hubbard, Jr." I never met him, but I heard -- I knew -- I said, "How could he not be talking to his own father?" We had technology to handle anyone supposedly. His other son committed suicide; His wife is in jail. He's hiding. What kind of man am I following? What am I dedicating my life to? I couldn't find the answers. And then, little by little things fell into place. And I did see documents of Ron Hubbard's past, and I had tremendous anger. My mind was boggled. I couldn't adjust my thinking of what had happened for the past seventeen years, that while I was at Clearwater Ron was -- he didn't care at all.. And that hatred has left, the anger has left. I have no -- I'm not on a crusade against Scientology; I have no vengeance whatsoever. I have -- I just -- I feel a responsibility to the people that I've talked to. I trained hundreds, maybe thousands, of students. They've trusted me. And they told me -- even after I told them what I felt about Scientology - they said, "How? But I always felt that I wanted to be like you." And they felt that I was the OT level. And I said, "No, that was me." And I want any Scientologist listening to know that, that I feel a responsibility to help any Scientologist that I could. I don't plan to attack Scientology at all. I just want to finish it right here and now and say that I'm not a Scientologist and maybe help someone to at least leave room to have some free thought to consider what I'm saying, and just look and say, "Am I happy? Do I see any of Scientology being applied in life?" And then, I want to go on with my own life. And, also, I want to say that I consider almost most Scientologists that I know are some of the best people in the world. They're dedicated. They truly believe, as I did, that they're helping mankind. And I have -- they're my best friends, many of them. And they probably won't talk to me now but they're still my best friends. So, that's why I'm here. I'm here to rid Scientology of all the lies and end it right here. MR. LeCHER: Thank you. Do you have any questions, Mrs. Garvey? MRS. GARVEY: Back in 1955, what was it that turned you on to this organization? Was it the background of Hubbard, was it the grandiose things they promised? What was it about -- MS. TAVERNA: The thing -- it was 1965, and the thing that got me was I was very, very impressed with Ron Hubbard. I thought that it was miraculous that one man developed something that could free mankind of all these ridiculous, irrational things and psychosomatic illness. I loved him right away. I loved him for being so courageous and going through the war and healing himself and studying in Asia for all these years just to devote his life to mankind. And I was so impressed that I loved him from the first moment. And it was a very traumatic thing for me when I found out. MRS. GARVEY: What were you promised? Were they -- when you started taking some of these courses, did they promise any results for you, do you remember? MS. TAVERNA: I was actually never sold auditing. In the old days -- it wasn't as bad in the earlier days. I just wanted it and came in. I think part of my purpose was more to counsel people. I didn't have that many -- I didn't have any problems. The thing that it promised was I guess I was more interested in the aims of Scientology. I thought it was beautiful to be part of a group that was going to handle drugs, crime, war. I mean, it was like, "Gee! I found such a good purpose in life and my children now will have a saner world to grow up in." That's why I joined. I joined just to make a better world. And I wasn't promised anything specific. You could see on the grade chart what you would attain, and I was very interested in more spiritual awareness. My main reason for coming in was that: the spiritual awareness and to understand death and what happens when you die and things like that. MRS. GARVEY: You said you didn't take much auditing, but you did work as an auditor. Did you ever tell anyone that your auditing was confidential? MS. TAVERNA: That their auditing was confidential? MRS. GARVEY: Were you ever told auditing is confidential, the information that you -- MS. TAVERNA: Oh, positively. Every -- I mean, that is -- it's printed and you read it., you know. I don't even know where specifically. But that is very common knowledge. It's printed in a lot of places. Anything you say will, you know, be kept in confidence. It's assumed and it's also printed. MRS. GARVEY: Would you have continued as an auditor if you, in fact, knew that this was not going to be kept confidential? MS. TAVERNA: Never. One of the things that upset me and actually brought me to tears -- that I did see some information from a preclear folder that was used by the Guardian's Office. I saw the person's name and I saw all their sexual withholds, and I just -- I cried because that was something sacred to me as an auditor, that a person could tell me anything. And to me, it was the same as a priest. And I feel that all the people that had auditing, I subjected them to harassment. And it shocked me that -- it disturbed me very much. MRS. GARVEY: You actually did see then an audit had been used? MS. TAVERNA: Yes. MRS. GARVEY: When you were told about the official visit, what are some of the things that are needed to do? Did you -- MS. TAVERNA: You have to dress a certain way. On certain days, it said, "No jeans." You were to be polite to any WOG. MRS. GARVEY: What about anything physically in the building? MS. TAVERNA: That's what I'm trying to think of. MRS. GARVEY: Was anything moved? Did anything have to be put away? MS. TAVERNA: I saw things being moved. I didn't do it because I wasn't a staff -- I was training or being an auditor. But I saw things being moved and shuffled. And I don't know the details on that. MRS. GARVEY: All right. But you do know then -- you can say, if there was, going to be a fire inspection, they knew ahead of time that there was going to be a fire code inspection? MS. TAVERNA: Yes, no question about that. MRS. GARVEY: I see. Even though our inspections are supposed to be spur of the moment, spontaneous? MS. TAVERNA: Oh, I didn't know that. I thought that they announced that -- MRS. GARVEY: No, it's not standard practice. MS. TAVERNA: Oh. Well, then, they found out some way. MRS. GARVEY: That's what I wanted to find out. MR. SHOEMAKER: Commissioner, we frequently and most of the time announce that we're coming down to do an inspection -- MRS. GARVEY: But not all the time. MR. SHOEMAKER: Generally, we do. We have -- MR. LeCHER: We would work our way down the street, though, wouldn't we, Mr. Shoemaker? Then, by the time that you start three doors away, then, they know that you're coming? MR. SHOEMAKER: That's very true. MR. LeCHER: So, they're warned that way, by just looking in the neighborhood. MRS. GARVEY: What were you told or what did you know about the GO Office? MS. TAVERNA: Well, what I was what I knew of the GO Office was they were kind of the elite of Scientology they were heroes; they were admired very much. I had considered going into the GO. They had tried to recruit me several times. They felt I had a good image and I could be very valuable to them. And I said, "Possibly sometime I might try it." And the GO -- the purpose was to protect Scientology and make it safe: protect it from any enemy so myself, as an auditor, could go and counsel people without being harassed by our so-called enemies, which were numerous, mentioned all the time. I believed it totally up until recently that all these agencies are attacking us and, if it wasn't for the Guardian's Office., I wouldn't be able to be here and help people. So, they were very well respected and admired. It was very secret. You never knew what they were doing. And sometimes, people were picked for a specific project and it was like an honor. And they kind of felt like a secret service guy; they would go around feeling very, very important. It was an honor to work for the GO. MRS. GARVEY: You were never picked for any specific project that you were supposed to do? MS. TAVERNA: I don't think I've ever done anything for the Go, other than I had mentioned -- that I was approached to be that agent. I never actually did Go projects. MRS. GARVEY: Okay. One of the things we often wonder about is: Does anyone ever hear the news? You mentioned going out and trying to read the newspaper. There is no TV, no radio, no newspapers available? MS. TAVERNA: You're not -- MRS. GARVEY: Would you believe them if you had them? MS. TAVERNA: Well, I -- I guess I wasn't as brainwashed as most because I believed what I read in the paper. But it's -- I don't know the word -- it's suggested that you don't read newspapers and you don't listen to the news. It is suggested that the news will always lie; it's predetermined. Don't ever, ever talk to a reporter. I was in fear of reporters. I thought they were all out to get us. You're not allowed to ever discuss anything. So -- MR. LeCHER: I am, too. MS. TAVERNA: -- it's -- no. Reporters have always been in Scientology since -- from the day I came in. We have a policy that news reporters are not allowed to take a Scientology course. As the Director of Training, I used to interview people and give them a check on the E-Meter: "Are you here for any other purpose than you state?" I could clear -- give people clearance. I was petrified of these reporters who could come in and destroy us. And then, I said -- recently, I said, "Why in the world can't -- I don't see any reason. Why can't a reporter come in? What are we doing here that's illegal? I'm teaching a course; I'm saving lives," which I did. I helped people by listening because I like people. I said, "Why can't a reporter come in and see what it is? How can every reporter be a Suppressive Person? This is insane." But I said, "Why can't someone go on television?" I said, "I would go on television." When people were upset about Scientology, I'd tell them, "Well, that's not what it is." And they'd say, "Oh, I didn't even know that." So, in Scientology, no one answers questions. If you see an interview, he'll say, "Is this true?" And they'll ask you if your mother was a Nazi. They don't answer questions. So, there's this secretiveness about the press. MRS. GARVEY: Were you -- or did you ever promise refunds if you did not achieve, if you did not accomplish what was promised? MS. TAVERNA: Was I personally promised or -- it's standard policy that anyone who is not satisfied with a service in Scientology, their money is promptly refunded. It's part of the auditor's code, which says, "I promise to refund any money" -- MRS. GARVEY: Do you know of anyone that did receive any refunds? MS. TAVERNA: Very few people. I mean, I don't even know if I know anyone personally. I know of people who have attempted to get refunds. You have a kind of complicated routing form and you have to see a lot of people and it takes a very long time. I think some people got their money back because I -- people have been referred to as Refund Case. In those cases, it was a person who was attempting to cause a lot of trouble; in other words, it was a security risk or the person was connected to someone in the government or the parents were going to take legal action. I understand that -- I don't know the facts, but I understand the money was given back very promptly. But if you were just an average person who came in, they'll say, "Well," you know, "write up your overts. And you'll go to cramming, you'll go to review; "Let's handle your case." And a lot of people who wanted a refund -- but it's hard to get out of that routing form. You change your mind because they found you a reason; they promised you a new process. You say, "Well, I think I'll hang around a little more." So, I don't know of anyone. No one I know ever got their money back. MRS. GARVEY: Did you ever have to sign a legal waiver a promise that you'd never sue, or do you know of anyone who has? Is that a standard policy? MS. TAVERNA: I signed a lot of waivers, and I really don't -- I don't even know what they were. I signed bonds for $50,000.00, $100,000.00 that I wouldn't talk about certain things ever. That I wouldn't sue? I think my sister did because, when she threatened to call the Board of Health, they made her sign something after that that she'd never sue, I think. But I had to sign a lot of things. There was one that I'd like to tell about, if I could. MRS. GARVEY: Go ahead, if you want to tell us about it. MS. TAVERNA: Well, this has to do with Clearwater. When I first joined the Sea Organization, I went to Los Angeles and I was filling out my life history, you know, my background and when I was on staff, what organizations, how long I stayed there. And I had to put something that I left the New York Organization. I was there for three years as the supervisor. I left in 1975. 1 finished my contract, which was two and-a-half years; I stayed an extra six months. And then, my boyfriend at the time, who I was going with, developed cancer. And I became very upset about this, and I didn't know what to do. I was afraid of the medical profession at the time. You're told that they're suppressive: "They want to cut you up; they want to operate; the cancer's going to spread." I was frantic. I didn't know what to do. A friend of mine, who happened to be a Scientologist and a very, very close friend, recommended a psychic healer in Mexico. I'd never heard of a psychic healer. You know, I had been in many healing practices. But I was so desperate and in such terror -- he told me that he had a blind son, and he told me that the doctor had taken a tumor out from the back of his son's eye with his hands, with no things. And with him telling me that, a Class 8 and such a good friend of mine, you know, sane-type person, stable -- he wasn't one of the flaky ones who was flying in space -- I wishful thinking, I said, "Maybe, maybe this is true." And I went to Mexico. And my boyfriend didn't go to -- he went to the doctor. The doctor wanted to do a biopsy, and we said, "No, no." We went to Mexico. When I went there, I walked into the office and I was shocked. I felt that I was back in Scientology advanced organizations. Every person in the waiting room was a Scientologist. And some of them were my good friends that I had done courses with in 1968. They were Class 8s; they were OT 6's and -- a high level of training and processing. And they all had cancer. And I was shocked. I said, "What are they doing? You know, "How could this be?" I was very optimistic then about the healer, and I went into, I guess, hallucinating at the time. I just had blind faith that this was going to save his life. And then, a friend of mine was there and she said that she wrote a letter to Ron Hubbard asking him what he felt about this fellow, his name was Feliciano. What did he think about psychic healing? She showed me the telex from Ron Hubbard and what it said was that "I believe this is valid therapy." He said, "I am not recommending it, but I believe it is the only therapy on the planet. I feel it is the truest form of surgery on the planet. But I'm not recommending it." So, I felt relieved that even Ron Hubbard said that this might work, not that I went I came there because of Ron Hubbard, but it's more it gave me a little bit more confidence. I stayed there for two or three months and things got worse. And I had to bring my boyfriend back to New York, and he died in Sloan Kettering about three months after he first got there. It was very quick. Now, when I arrived at LA to join the Sea Organization, they -- I happened to mention -- I don't know why -- that I left staff. I was like filling in my life: "I went to Mexico with my boyfriend." I was explaining that I wasn't on staff during that period. I was waiting to leave Clearwater and a fellow came down to see me and said, "The GO wants to talk to you about something. They said they want a full report on this psychic healer. They want to know what happened, who was there, what happened in Mexico." I wrote a detailed report about every person who was there, what happened. I happened to include the telex. Someone came down and told me that I had to sign a waiver, I think it was for $50,000.00, that I'd never discuss this with anyone. And they said that I didn't really see a telex from Ron Hubbard. MRS. GARVEY: You did -- MS. TAVERNA:, I didn't see it. And I signed a waiver that I didn't see a telex from Ron Hubbard. And I looked at it and I said, "Well, there's probably some PR reasons that they don't want it out that Ron Hubbard associated his name with a psychic healer or that people did die." And I never in Scientology compromised my reality. I never went along with something that I didn't think was totally, totally ethical. But this time I did. I said, "It's not that important. I don't care about the healer anymore. And there's no one I want to tell about it." So, I signed the paper thinking, "Well, they're looking to protect Ron's name, so I'm not going to talk about it." But when I got to Clearwater, this Skip Henson brought it out and he humiliated me. And I was still very sensitive about the subject and -- MR. LeCHER: Well, that's fine. Mrs. -- MS. TAVERNA: I just wanted to say one thing that he said to me. He started screaming at me when he saw the report. And he said, "Do you know that that squirrel" -- squirrel in Scientology is someone who doesn't apply Scientology standardly or goes into another practice. He screamed very loud -- he didn't say it to me he said, "Don't you know that squirrel, squirrel" he screamed it at me. "How could Scientologists go to that dadadada. Don't you ever talk about this," you know. And I was very upset at the time and choked up. He was talking without any knowledge of what I had been through. And, also, when he was sick, I tried in desperation -- I called every Scientology organization in the world and I asked for help. And they said, "We can't help you." MR. LeCHER: Anything else, Mrs. Garvey? MRS. GARVEY: No. MR. LeCHER: Mr. Hatchett. MR. FLYNN: A point of information, Mayor, if I may? MR. LeCHER: Certainly. MR. FLYNN: The question of a legal release was brought up by Mrs. Garvey. We will be putting into evidence the standard legal release which is contained in their standard volume, which, I believe the evidence will show, most Scientologists sign. But I believe the evidence will show that most Scientologists don't even are not aware of what they are signing. We will be putting that into evidence, together with actual -- the form, together with actual forms that have been signed by former Scientologists, together with promissory notes, waivers, and affidavits as to the type of -- MR. LeCHER: Will you be doing that after this witness's testimony? Will you be doing it today? MR. FLYNN: I'm not sure it will be today in terms of point of order of our witnesses and our evidence, but it will be in before tomorrow afternoon. And there's substantial -- a great deal of evidence pertaining to this subject. MR. LeCHER: Mr. Hatchett. MR. HATCHETT: Fine, thank you. I'd like to ask you a few questions, please. When you came to Clearwater in 1979 and you found things in disarray, why did you not turn around and go back, you couldn't? MS. TAVERNA: Well, I felt I came here to do this course and it was going to be the greatest thing that ever happened. And I was used to -- after fifteen years of overcoming the obstacles of the insane people, I said, "Well, I know they're just stepped on and crazy. They just don't understand the real technology." So, I wasn't shocked. I just thought that it wouldn't be at Flag. I've seen it in every organization. But Flag is the ultimate; it is the highest -- when you go to Flag, it's the biggest honor in the world. So, I didn't expect to see it here, but I wasn't shocked. MR. HATCHETT: All right. You said, when you left Clearwater trying to escape, before that you felt like a prisoner -- MS. TAVERNA: Yes. MR. HATCHETT: -- you were going insane, and you feared for your life. Was that a form of kidnapping? MS. TAVERNA: Well -- MR. HATCHETT: It was against your will. If you wanted to go -- MS. TAVERNA: Yeah. I wasn't kidnapped. There's a lot of -- it's a mental -- MRS. GARVEY: Mental kidnapping. MS. TAVERNA: Yeah. It's -- you know you can't leave. Plus, I've heard stories of physical abuse and locking up. And I know people who were in chain lockers chained up. I spoke with them, not at Clearwater. I don't know -- it was probably in Los Angeles on the ship. But I knew that there were forms of punishment, and there's also an obligation not to leave even if you wanted to. When you're a Scientologist, you are mentally hooked. After Clearwater, I was out, but I wasn't out. My mind -- I was still a Scientologist up until two months ago. And I thought I was out. Even after I thought I was out again, it didn't happen actually until a few weeks ago where I now feel that I am back to a free-thinking individual. I also feel that I'm now part of the human race again. And I'm -- I've been very happy for the last few weeks. I feel like I have a new life now. MR. HATCHETT: Thank you. Before coming to Clearwater, you were instructed not to talk to Clearwater residents, not only Clearwater officials. MS. TAVERNA: This is after I arrived I was told that. MR. HATCHETT: Why did they tell you Clearwater residents? I may understand why not Clearwater officials -- MS. TAVERNA: Anyone in Clearwater not a Scientologist. MR. HATCHETT: No one? MS. TAVERNA: They didn't say residents. They didn't say, "Don't talk to them." They said to be polite, to say hello, but don't discuss anything of your business here or why you were here. Give the pat answer, which was "I'm here for religious counseling," or some thing like that. MR. HATCHETT: Didn't you feel you lost your business as a result of Scientology, the events in New York? MS. TAVERNA: Well, it's directly related. I kind of -- through Scientology, I tend to take a lot of responsibility for my decisions. I don't like to blame people -- MR. LeCHER: What was your business in New York? MS. TAVERNA: I did -- I had a store at one time, a souvenir store in Times Square in Manhattan. I have computer pictures that go on a tee shirt. I did promotional work for radio stations. And I've had -- every time I came out, I started a new business. The computer machine I still have; I still get jobs. I do parties and promotional work. MR. HATCHETT: I'm going to stop at this moment. MR. LeCHER: Do you have any questions, Mr. Shoemaker? MR. SHOEMAKER: Yes, Mayor, if I might. Miss Taverna, you went into the education of the children. Do you know, are there any specific types of qualifications that the teachers are to have -- MS. TAVERNA: No. MR. SHOEMAKER: -- to teach the courses? MS. TAVERNA: The people who teach the children are not teachers; they're staff members. They don't have any teaching degree. MR. SHOEMAKER: They do not have a teaching -- MS. TAVERNA: No. MR. SHOEMAKER: -- degree? MS. TAVERNA: I don't know any. I think there might have been. I think there was one in the Ability School where my daughter went in New York. But I know for a fact that the teachers in Los Angeles were not teachers when my daughter was there. MR. SHOEMAKER: Is that considered to be, in Scientology, a good job or a bad job or -- MS. TAVERNA: To be a teacher? MR. SHbtMAKER: Yes. MS. TAVERNA: I really don't know. I do know from other staff members that to be a nanny, which is a person who takes care of the children -- I've heard this from other staff members who have to do with personnel that very often when they have a person that they consider slightly degraded or who can't handle a post, they put them on nanny. I got this from my sister-in-law who was the nanny for many years in the Sea Organization. She blew a few times and came back because she wanted to help children. She was confronted with a situation where she had to watch thirty and forty infants at a time. And the Board of Health would be coming in for inspection, and she had to hide ten and twenty children in a closet. She told me they had things called Quiet Drills regularly. Children were trained at certain periods of time they must be quiet; they didn't know why. They were put in a room, the door was locked and, until the officials left, they couldn't make any sounds. I justified this as "We're doing the best we can. We don't have room for the children. We can't close Scientology." All this has been justified. But I will never justify another thing again. MR. SHOEMAKER: When you initially arrived at the Fort Harrison or during your -- MS. TAVERNA: I'm sorry, I just -- MR. SHOEMAKER: Sure. At the time you were or during the time when you were in Scientology, did you ever go through a security check or -- Ms. TAVERNA: Yes. I've had a security check many times. When you arrive somewhere -- I was on the -- one of Ron Hubbard's ships in 1968, which is the Royal Scotman. I was there when he was on the ship; I met him. And before you enter any place where Ron Hubbard is, you must be security checked. If you are going to get a leave of absence or leave the premises at any time, you have to get a security check. At Clearwater, as an auditor, I was called to do many security checks on people if they were taking a leave or a vacation for a week. MR. SHOEMAKER: During the time you were auditing and in my understanding of the auditing process, you're actually auditing as to -- whether the beliefs are being accepted or not of the person that you're auditing and for the courses at that time; would that be correct? MS. TAVERNA: I'm sorry; I didn't understand the question. MR. SHOEMAKER: If you were -- your audit specifically relates directly to how well the person is doing in the given course that they might be in at that particular time, such as this NED for OT auditing that you were doing to the people that were actually doing the course. And you have indicated that you had some concern about what you were learning in that course. Did that ever bother you at the time you were doing the auditing to try to determine what the other person -- MS. TAVERNA: That I was auditing the other people, was I concerned? I became -- MR. SHOEMAKER: That they -- MS. TAVERNA: I became very concerned with people that I was auditing because I saw very strange things from the people that I was auditing. Specifically, one person, who I went to the Director of Processing said, "I refuse to audit this person." He had a strange glare in his eyes. He was running this NOTS process. And I won't go into the technical things of the E-Meter, but the E-Meter is supposed to register a certain way when you feel better; the needle will go down. This fellow was realizing things and the needle was going up. He was -- I could see by his face that he was not there; he was in a daze. And he was like -- he sort of had an insane look, and he was saying how wonderful talking slowly -- nothing was happening on the E-Meter. And I said, "There's something wrong with this person," and I said, "I'm not auditing him." So, they took me off the case and I understand he was really giving it to other auditors. Specifically, another person, I also -- I felt like I was betraying the people that I was auditing and I didn't want to do it anymore. MR. SHOEMAKER: With the -- I notice there are at least two observations, at least, the people that come here to Clearwater, many of them are young. You don't see a great number of elderly people. Would that be a fair surmise Do you have any reason as to why that is the case? Ms. TAVERNA: I think it's always been that way from -- even when I came in. I think young people are very susceptible to this because it sounds like such a beautiful purpose. Most young people have ideals and they want to change the world. And when you come into Scientology -- I've seen people who open the door and they are just like flying for weeks and weeks. They feel they've found something. And they -- young people will recognize the outnesses in this world and they don't know how to change them. And you walk in the door and you find a group of people who have a good purpose and want to change the world. I think they're much more susceptible. And they don't have that much experience in life to know exactly what they're getting into. MR. SHOEMAKER: Yes. Since you've left Scientology -- first of all, did they know -- I'm sure they do now -- but did they know before now -- MS. TAVERNA: I would say that most of the Scientologists in the world have no idea that I left up until now -- they all know. But when I finally called Brown McKee and started getting answers, I just -- I realized that I didn't have to see any documents. I don't care about Ron Hubbard's past. I realized that I had been absolutely miserable for the past ten years. I hated it. I fought all the staff members. I don't care if it's true or it's not true; I don't want to be part of it. So I actually forgot the question, but I wanted to say something about it. MR. SHOEMAKER: You answered it very well. The other part -- MS. TAVERNA: Oh. MR. SHOEMAKER: -- of it is just basically: Have you had any kind of -- has anyone tried to put any pressure on you or -- MS. TAVERNA: Oh, yes, I remember. So, what I did was I -- oh, basically -- my sister will tell her story. She was married to someone in the Sea Org. at the time. He was living with us at my sister's house. So, here I was, you know, talking to suppressives and "This fellow's going to get killed. He's going to go in the RPF." We're talking to lawyers. We're talking to the biggest SPs in the world. I don't think any of you really understand how traumatic -- it's unthinkable. So, we were shaking. I was in such fear I couldn't sleep for days. So, we told my sister's husband because we knew that we were going to be out now. So, he went back and he told them and we since called them and told them we no longer -- I didn't want my name associated with it. We had no harassment at all. I was very surprised. I did get phone calls from old friends from '66. Students who I haven't heard from since 1965 called me up: "Do you remember me? I want to tell you that you changed my life and I love you." And it's sincere because I did. And he said, "Please, if I can help you, I'm here. And I said, "I want you to know that I'm in fine shape and there's nothing wrong, nothing to handle." But they attempted to have old friends call me up to get to me because they knew my button, which is something that you react to, is help. And if I know I can help someone, to kind of go back. But I was already over it and nothing could change me. But the -- I was in terrible fear, but I have had no harassment. MR. SHOEMAKER: During the process that you were in or while you were in Scientology, did anyone attempt to use the information you provided through the auditing process., when you were audited, against you to -- MS. TAVERNA: No. MR. LeCHER: Are you -- MR. SHOEMAKER: Mayor, give me just a second and I'll be finished. Were you aware of what's been referred to as the Fair Game Policy? MS. TAVERNA: Oh, yes. That was in effect when I was on staff. MR. SHOEMAKER: And that was up until you said you just left -- when did you leave Clearwater? MS. TAVERNA: Well,
I left Clearwater in December of 1979, and I officially left, mentally,
Scientology -- no -- two MR. SHOEMAKER: So, up until two months ago, you were still an active Scientologist? MS. TAVERNA: Yes. MR. SHOEMAKER: -- and as far as you know, the Fair Game Policy was still in effect? MS. TAVERNA: Oh, I don't know. I don't know if it was in effect as of two months ago; I really don't know. I meant, I have seen it in effect. I don't know currently if it is. I assume it is. It's in effect through actions because I know things are done to people. And I know Scientologists will do anything they have to to protect Scientology. And I remember feeling that way, and I have compassion for them because I was so misled that I felt it was justifiable -- it was justified to stop a Suppressive Person who wants to harm good people. And I believe it will always be in effect; that policy will never be out of effect in actions. It was probably cancelled officially. MR. SHOEMAKER: One more question and, then, I'll stop. MS. TAVERNA: Okay. MR. SHOEMAKER: And really, I do appreciate listening to you. I think it's really been an educational process for all of us. In the auditing process, is there -- and this kind of relates -- let me ask two questions. Were there any types of clinics provided for people that were ill or had cuts or scratches or headaches or anything like that, or anyone that had a toothache or any problem or something like that at any of the -- any organizations where you came and stayed for the counseling and so forth? MS. TAVERNA: No. There was a Medical officer; he had a first aid kit. And if you needed a dentist, you would -- you know, you could go to a dentist. MR. SHOEMAKER: Would he prescribe drugs? MS. TAVERNA: I don't know. He never did with me. He prescribed -- I saw him prescribe vitamins. He prescribed vitamins for me when I was sick. I don't remember what they were. He told me to take this and that. Basically, nutritional things: what to eat, take Calmag every day for your nerves. MR. SHOEMAKER: I understand that in the auditing process that there was a procedure or there was a policy not to provide auditing for somebody that was diagnosed as terminally ill? MS. TAVERNA: Yes. MR. SHOEMAKER: Were you -- did they ever explain the reason or why that policy was -- MS. TAVERNA: In the early days when I was in Scientology, I just assumed that Dianetics would handle anything. I -- MR. SHOEMAKER: Yeah. MS. TAVERNA: -- mean, there was alll talk about cancer. But then, I saw so many of my friends die of cancer who had the highest level of auditing. And I, well, my boyfriend died, and he couldn't get any auditing. So, I know it's not allowed. MR. SHOEMAKER: Yeah. MS. TAVERNA: I assumed that it was because the person was dying and, if you audited them, Scientology could be connected to the failure. And the person dying, it would be a bad promotional activity to audit someone who was going to die because I don't think it had any chance of saving them. MR. SHOEMAKER: Thank you. MR. LeCHER: As the Mayor of the city, I'd like to think about the image that you have of the city. And I when you mention Rome, you get a certain mental image; when you mention Salt Lake City, you get another image. And I guess you get a totally different one when you mention Dachau. What did you think of when you were going to come to Clearwater, when you first arrived? And what did you think of Clearwater after you escaped? You mentioned the word "hell" before. Does that have any connotation with our city? MS. TAVERNA: What I thought of Clearwater was just so horrible; I couldn't believe that anyone lived here. I -- I hated everything about the city. I heard the name and the association was with misery and pain, and I said it was ugly and horrible. And it just meant pain and misery to me. I said I would never come back here for the rest of my life or look at. I got almost physically ill when I looked at pictures of it. I would get tremors for about a month after if I got a brochure and looked at the Fort Harrison. And I noticed something interesting last night. I was on the balcony of where I am staying, and I looked at the beach and I said, "It's one of the most beautiful cities I've ever been in." And I'm looking through new eyes. And I said, "What did I think was so horrible?" It was being in an atmosphere that was so ugly and so suppressive. I don't think of it -- I mean, I might still have a little funny feeling about Clearwater, but I know it's not that way now. MR. LeCHER: Thank you. If you stay a couple of more days here, you'll love it, too. MS. TAVERNA: Okay. MR. LeCHER: Thank you very much. You've been very good, very cooperative, and a very brave lady. MS. TAVERNA: Thank you. MR. FLYNN: Mayor, can we take a ten-minute recess? MR. LeCHER: Yes. (Whereupon, a recess was taken.) (Whereupon, the hearing resumed.)
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